Kitely Mentors Group Meeting, 24 April 2013: summary

[Constance Peregrine]

yes, well surely, the console would tell a fuller story [gosh I love console watching].

I don't think anybody denies you did a good job there, even great...

I had noticed jaidens museum was missing and thought I needed glasses, once again, properly prescribed. I guess that is where the gardens are now, I didn't keep up much on all that, really.

I would take a more calm approach to things now, maybe slow some things down a little and flow a bit....that is just me tho, I am a flowing type of personality....lololol

[floats away on streams of happiness and contentment...sighssss]

[Bladyblue Bommerang]

I would take a more calm approach to things now, maybe slow some things down a little and flow a bit...

I agree. I can't keeping pushing against an unmovable force.

So I sit and wait patiently for Dennis to figure out the Greeter and event coordinator HUD while I write-up some more solid documentation for the volunteer program that everyone can review and make suggestions about. It won't be the smooth transition from a complete build in April to a populated community area in may as I planned - but it will happen by the end of the summer anyway.

[Ilan Tochner]

Blady,

The Mentors Group Hangout is a public world, it appears in the Public Worlds page and anyone can enter it. Work on it stopped before it reached a stage we felt it was ready to be used as a gateway world but it was intended to become one. You don't know about this effort so you claim it didn't happen but the fact that the world was never completed doesn't mean the community hadn't worked together to build a social greeting hub for Kitely before you arrived at the scene (look at the creator information for various items in the hangout; you can also ask Stio, Sally and Marstol about this if that doesn't convince you).

I responded to your false statements claiming all I had to do was rezz the world, when we have had to spend a lot of resources developing extra features to enable this world to be the official greeting hub. I keep giving you examples and you keep making silly claims that we didn't need to do anything. Please stop talking about things you know very little about and I won't have to spend time trying to counter your claims just so that other people reading this thread won't be left with your misinformed statements.

You claiming that people didn't have initiatives or do work before you arrived is insulting to the people who helped Kitely grow before you even entered the picture (some of those people even helped build the plaza).

Nothing stopped you from creating a world on your own but then it wouldn't have been the official Kitely Plaza where we direct new users, keep always on, and publicly endorse. So yes, I did need to make you the coordinator and give you public endorsement and various permissions in that world or it would have remained your own personal project and you would have had a lot more difficulty getting people to volunteer to build it. Even if you had built the exact same thing without our help, the world, lacking our optimizations, would have been very laggy and would have taken a long time to start up.

The people who volunteered to build the Plaza spent a lot of time doing so and did a GREAT job. That said, we've had to spend a lot of resources to enable this project as well - a fact that you refuse to understand. There is something about the existing Kitely Plaza build that is causing it to be very laggy, even when more complex Kitely worlds run just fine. it isn't' just derived from external factors. The Kitely Plaza world lagged even when we created a private copy of it in a separate dedicated server that has no problem running a 16-region 100K prim world with more scripts without any lag.

Look at the schematics and go into the Plaza, now count the number of buildings that fit the schematic layout in size, position, and purpose and the number of buildings that don't. You'll see that what was built may look great and, once optimized, may be a wonderful greeting world for Kitely but it wasn't what we agreed on before we started this project. If you can't give us credit for all we've done to support the wonderful Kitely Plaza the community built at least acknowledge that what was built was not what we initially mapped out.

[Bladyblue Bommerang]

Blady,

The Mentors Group Hangout is a public world, it appears in the Public Worlds page and anyone can enter it.

The first sentence in the Mentor Group hangout world description you wrote reads "Access to this world is free for Kitely Mentors Group members".

Work on it stopped before it reached a stage we felt it was ready to be used as a gateway world but it was intended to become one. You don't know about this effort so you claim it didn't happen but the fact that the world was never completed doesn't mean the community hadn't worked together to build a social greeting hub for Kitely before you arrived at the scene (look at the creator information for various items in the hangout; you can also ask Stio, Sally and Marstol about this if that doesn't convince you).

It doesn't convince me because it sounds like an abandoned project. Surely you could have gathered enough people to complete it since 2012. And that plan had no shopping as part of it.

I am sure that the Mentor Hangout was meant to be a lovely place. But I see Linda Kellie freebie stuff there.

I responded to your false statements claiming all I had to do was rezz the world, when we have had to spend a lot of resources developing extra features to enable this world to be the official greeting hub. I keep giving you examples and you keep making silly claims that we didn't need to do anything.That's because you didn't Please stop talking about things you know very little about and I won't have to spend time trying to counter your claims just so that other people reading this thread won't be left with your misinformed statements.

The point is that you are supposed to do something when a group of volunteers offer to help you. Bemoaning to the volunteers about how much work they caused you is not cool.

You claiming that people didn't have initiatives or do work before you arrived is insulting to the people who helped Kitely grow before you even entered the picture (some of those people even helped build the plaza).

yeah, sure. Because of the way I entered Kitely (6 months of no access and then hours of figuring things out on my own) I thought the plaza would be a good solution. I included signage that will help people get started. I tried to create some solutions for the issues that Firestorm initially causes some people, but you did not like the solutions. I'm still trying to get the Firestorm folks to make a viewer for opensim, but Kokua seems to be getting updates now and that may be another solution to look at again.

Nothing stopped you from creating a world on your own but then it wouldn't have been the official Kitely Plaza where we direct new users, keep always on, and publicly endorse. So yes, I did need to make you the coordinator and give you public endorsement and various permissions in that world or it would have remained your own personal project and you would have had a lot more difficulty getting people to volunteer to build it.

Not at all. I work with volunteers every day. Most volunteers do not need 'official endorsement' to volunteer for a community project.

Even if you had built the exact same thing without our help, the world, lacking our optimizations, would have been very laggy and would have taken a long time to start up.

Ilan I have 16 sims that are not as laggy as those 4 sims. And I am not blaming you for that. It is just fact.

The people who volunteered to build the Plaza spent a lot of time doing so and did a GREAT job. That said, we've had to spend a lot of resources to enable this project as well - a fact that you refuse to understand.

It is understood, but it was expected that you would provide some resources for the free mall you were getting. It's not like any of us get any lasting dividends out of it.

There is something about the existing Kitely Plaza build that is causing it to be very laggy, even when more complex Kitely worlds run just fine. it isn't' just derived from external factors. The Kitely Plaza world lagged even when we created a private copy of it in a separate dedicated server that has no problem running a 16-region 100K prim world with more scripts without any lag.

Try disabling all of the scripts and see what happens. And we did import some large builds from our hard drives straight into the plaza. I know it is a hassle, but perhaps you need to check each prim to see what the issue is. Also if you turn megaregion off you may be able to pinpoint the issue on one of the sims. That would mean you would have to raise the ground under the boardwalk so people would not fall through the prim bridge into the water.

Look at the schematics and go into the Plaza, now count the number of buildings that fit the schematic layout in size, position, and purpose and the number of buildings that don't. You'll see that what was built may look great and, once optimized, may be a wonderful greeting world for Kitely but it wasn't what we agreed on before we started this project. If you can't give us credit for all we've done to support the wonderful Kitely Plaza the community built at least acknowledge that what was built was not what we initially mapped out.

As I stated, all malls were built. The community areas that were supposed to be on each mall parcel were moved to one sim (because the builders realized that they could not fit a fashion runway, meeting place and 10 stores in a half sim). That was the only change we decided to make.

[Ilan Tochner]

Blady,

The Kitely Mentors Group hangout is sponsored for people in the Kitely Mentors group but anyone can enter it. The builders had plans for things that the group never got around to building, including various places people could acquire starter content. It was built using some Linda Kellie freebies but also using a lot of original content from the people who built it. For example, if you dive underwater you'll see a lot of marine life that Stio added (also in the pub).

I didn't bemoan doing work, I stated that your claims that what I did was not called for were off target. Had we not spent a lot of time on this project it would have lacked many things that are/were required for it to exist as an always-on world and to perform decently (which it still doesn't).

Some of the people who built the plaza did so just because it was announced to be the official Kitely greeting world - they would not have contributed without our official endorsement (Sentual and Somebody stated that to me several times).

I don't blame anybody, but the plaza world is indeed much more laggy than your 16-region Kitely world and all other worlds I've seen on Kitely. Researching a solution for this is continuing to consume our time at the expense of other things people are waiting for. Building a greeting hub is a worthy project but supporting it does come at a cost to our business and to the needs of other people who'd prefer that we work on other features first.

There are more than 35,000 prims in the plaza and more than 1300 scripts. Manual research is exactly what is time consuming, especially as there are still many buried prims, overlapping duplicate prims, and hidden textures in the plaza. We'll add debug code in the next site update to help us track the main issues but that too is time consuming. All this is to state that our involvement in the plaza is not something that we can opt out of. The plaza can't serve its purpose if we don't optimize it.

[Bladyblue Bommerang]

Blady,

The Kitely Mentors Group hangout is sponsored for people in the Kitely Mentors group but anyone can enter it. The builders had plans for things that the group never got around to building, including various places people could acquire starter content. It was built using some Linda Kellie freebies but also using a lot of original content from the people who built it. For example, if you dive underwater you'll see a lot of marine life that Stio added (also in the pub).

Oh that's too bad no one finished it.

I didn't bemoan doing work, I stated that your claims that what I did was not called for were off target.

the changes you had the builders make (without my knowledge) did nothing to change the goal of the project. In the end, we still have 60 mall spots and the community areas, as planned. Telling someone to use torches instead of spotlights, to rez a one-sided bubble around a mall, and take down their build to make more corporate looking galleries than the Victorian ones already built did nothing to make the mall 'work better for Kitely'. It just made it look more like what Ilan likes.

Had we not spent a lot of time on this project it would have lacked many things that are/were required for it to exist as an always-on world and to perform decently (which it still doesn't).

OK, that's your end. We did our end without complaint. It benefits you more than it benefits us. You should be happy to help yourself.

Some of the people who built the plaza did so just because it was announced to be the official Kitely greeting world - they would not have contributed without our official endorsement (Sentual and Somebody stated that to me several times).

I made initial contact with Sentual after the plaza project had started and Ryan Radio and I were the only builders volunteering there. I went to Sentual's land to buy horses. She came to my land afterwards. I asked her to build the plaza with me. She agreed.

I don't blame anybody, but the plaza world is indeed much more laggy than your 16-region Kitely world and all other worlds I've seen on Kitely. Researching a solution for this is continuing to consume our time at the expense of other things people are waiting for. Building a greeting hub is a worthy project but supporting it does come at a cost to our business and to the needs of other people who'd prefer that we work on other features first.

It will always be a juggling act and there will always be 'other people' that want something else. But there is a difference between wanting and pitching in to make something happen. I appreciate people that pitch in and I do what I can to help them reach the goals they have helped establish.

There are more than 35,000 prims in the plaza and more than 1300 scripts.

Sounds like too many scripts. Maybe Dennis can help with that.

Manual research is exactly what is time consuming, especially as there are still many buried prims, overlapping duplicate prims, and hidden textures in the plaza. We'll add debug code in the next site update to help us track the main issues but that too is time consuming. All this is to state that our involvement in the plaza is not something that we can opt out of. The plaza can't serve its purpose if we don't optimize it.

rez the OAR someplace else and have someone work on debugging it. Once it works without the lag, re-OAR it and replace the mall there now.

The problem occurring is that merchants are slowly moving in there. It makes it even harder to replace the world later. I say don't allow the merchants in until the marketplace is available in June since they can't sell using paypal now anyway and they aren't making any money. That would give you another 6 weeks for someone to work on the Plaza OAR.