Kitely Forums

Note: No one volunteered to write the meeting summary this week so I'm attaching the chat log instead.

[13:00] Minethere Always is online.
[13:01] Minethere Always: heya Ilan
[13:01] Min Tigerpaw: Hi folks
[13:01] Doc Phair: hello dundridge and IIan
[13:01] Min Tigerpaw: Hi Ilan
[13:01] Minethere Always: Doc likes Kitely
[13:01] Minethere Always: heya Stio-))
[13:02] Ilan Tochner: Hi sorry was AFK
[13:02] Stiofain MacTomais: hi all
[13:02] Min Tigerpaw: ty Mine
[13:02] Ada Radius is online.
[13:02] Minethere Always: <(+_+)>?h? pl?a?ur? is ?lway? ?in?<(+_+)>
[13:03] Ilan Tochner: let me send reminders to some other people who are inworld at this time
[13:03] Minethere Always: hey Ada
[13:03] Min Tigerpaw: made some as well ... if Ilan gives me on of the chairs I can make versions with multisitposes for the next meeting
[13:03] Ada Radius: Hey Miney! This time it took me three times to log in , lol
[13:04] Minethere Always: lol
[13:04] Stiofain MacTomais: i noticed login was slower than usual
[13:04] Minethere Always: heya mat
[13:04] mat mahogany: hi there
[13:04] Ada Radius: glad I'm not a programmer.
[13:04] mat mahogany: ty Ilan
[13:05] Dundridge Dreadlow: heh, glad I am
[13:05] Stiofain MacTomais: welcome mat {the old jokes are the best )
[13:05] Ada Radius: Hi Ilan! Hi Stio, Min Dundridge, Mat!
[13:05] Ada Radius: and Doc!
[13:05] mat mahogany: wow, seats!!!!!
[13:05] Min Tigerpaw: Hi Ada, hi MAt
[13:05] Ilan Tochner: hi mat please take a sit
[13:05] Minethere Always: lol
[13:05] mat mahogany: ty, im happy too,
[13:05] Min Tigerpaw: yeah but we all sit the same way .... need to change this !
[13:06] Minethere Always: yupyup
[13:06] Ada Radius: and the sits are for Very Tall avs, lol.
[13:06] Stiofain MacTomais: yea is a very male sit
[13:07] Dundridge Dreadlow: just finished the scripting on Sierra's new chairs, full multi sit now(she's been badgering me about that since we got here)
[13:07] Ilan Tochner: sorry about that, Marstol gave me a chair with other sits but it didn't work (at least not for me) so I left these
[13:07] Minethere Always: wonderful DD
[13:07] Ada Radius: these are fine just kvetching
[13:07] Min Tigerpaw: I offer to make the chairs with multi sits for next time ... just need one of theses chairs
[13:08] Ilan Tochner: I sent you one Min
[13:08] Ada Radius: oo got the sits, Miney, TYTY
[13:08] Minethere Always: -))
[13:08] mat mahogany: looking suntanned there Stio?
[13:08] Min Tigerpaw: ty Ilan
[13:09] Ilan Tochner: anyway, anyone has anything they'd like to share before we begin?
[13:09] Stiofain MacTomais: lol am a pasty faced irishman in rl mat
[13:09] Minethere Always: i'm tired...
[13:09] Dundridge Dreadlow: it's wednesday.
[13:09] mat mahogany: haha ok,
[13:09] mat mahogany: I dont see Ada although i see here tag?
[13:10] Ada Radius: I'm two chairs to the left of Ilan
[13:10] Ilan Tochner: Can you please rebake Ada?
[13:10] Dundridge Dreadlow: indeed you are hair and feet
[13:10] Ada Radius: k
[13:10] Ilan Tochner: thanks
[13:10] Ilan Tochner: okay let me start with a short update
[13:10] mat mahogany: i see you now ty Ada
[13:10] mat mahogany: ok
[13:11] Ilan Tochner: as some of you have seen there has been a recent problem with people fialing to login on the first (and sometimes multiple) attempt.
[13:11] mat mahogany: i thought it was me, ok
[13:12] Ilan Tochner: This is due to the viewer timing out on responses for gestures that are taking a long time to be transfered from the inventory service to the sim on first login
[13:12] Dundridge Dreadlow: gestures!
[13:12] Minethere Always: lol
[13:12] Ada Radius: (deactivating all gestures as I type)
[13:13] Dundridge Dreadlow: I've not done anything with gestures here yet, it's on my todo list
[13:13] Dundridge Dreadlow: (somewhere)
[13:13] Minethere Always: eeeeek ........eeeeeeek.....eeeeeek
[13:13] Ilan Tochner: this happens because those get transfered to the sim during the connection phase and the query that returns them is not very optimized (standard OpenSim code, not our fault)
[13:13] Ada Radius: hm, I had only one active gesture
[13:14] Dundridge Dreadlow: seems I have all the standard pre-setup ones active
[13:14] Ilan Tochner: this isn't a problem when there aren't many itmes in the inventory but as some people have a lot more items now then they used to in the past, the commulitive effect has caused this to slow down to a level where some people with larger inventories time out while they login
[13:15] Ada Radius: how big is "larger" for inventories?
[13:15] Ilan Tochner: those are the ones that get loaded Dundridge
[13:15] Minethere Always: i deleted all of those anyways
[13:15] Ada Radius: yah I'm gonna too. but none of mine were active
[13:16] Minethere Always: i like my own
[13:16] mat mahogany: ive deactivated all but 2
[13:16] Dundridge Dreadlow: yeah, select all gestures from user, fine with a couple, gotta check everything if lots of items, hmm. I doubt it'd make a difference if they are active/inactive, query would still need to check all items
[13:16] Ilan Tochner: In any case, what we're working on now is optimizing those login queries so that the process won't time out
[13:17] Minethere Always: i recall in the inworldz grid one time they deactivated them grid wide for some server issue...it was very annoying and they never explained why to us peons-))
[13:17] Ilan Tochner: once this is done people should login faster and therefore the viewer won't time out
[13:17] Dundridge Dreadlow: not looked at the code there, would it be easier to drop gestuire loading till login complete ?
[13:17] Ada Radius: ty Ilan
[13:17] mat mahogany: ok, so we can deactivate then anyway and this wil help anyways?
[13:17] mat mahogany: is that right?
[13:18] Ilan Tochner: the queries need to be optimized delaying them isn't enough
[13:18] Ilan Tochner: it's slowing down the entire system
[13:18] Dundridge Dreadlow: kk
[13:18] Minethere Always: i never noticed in opensim tho but i dont use many gestures anymore
[13:18] mat mahogany: so even 1 querie will slow everything down then?
[13:18] Ilan Tochner: I guess the person who implemented them in the first place didn't consider people having thousands, or tens of thousands of items
[13:19] Dundridge Dreadlow: visit 5 freebie sims, come up witha couple thousand items after unpacking
[13:19] Minethere Always: some ppl have an aversion to them
[13:19] Ilan Tochner: one query slows down for the user loging in but multiple slow queries build up and slow down chunks of the entire inventory system
[13:20] mat mahogany: right ok
[13:20] Min Tigerpaw: number of items grow fast if u build you can't prevent that really
[13:20] Ilan Tochner: yes, that's why this is worth our time to optimize
[13:20] Ilan Tochner: and we don't want people to ever fail to login
[13:21] mat mahogany: ok
[13:21] mat mahogany: go ty Ilan
[13:21] Dundridge Dreadlow: failed login is ok once, the second attempt failing is a real problem
[13:21] Ilan Tochner: there are people with more than 30,000 items in their Kitely inventories already
[13:21] mat mahogany: good
[13:21] Minethere Always: eeekkkk
[13:21] Stiofain MacTomais: is it down to the viewer that standard gestures are active by default?
[13:22] Ilan Tochner: yes for them that gesture query can take more than 30 seconds - which is completely unacceptable
[13:22] Dundridge Dreadlow: 30 seconds ?! Ok, that really needs fiddling with
[13:23] Ilan Tochner: the viewer queries the sim which then queries the inventory system - for the first attempt the sim doesn't have any of the gestures yet so it times out then after several attempts it has enough cached for the system to complete before the viewer times out
[13:23] Dundridge Dreadlow: specially for something minor like gestures
[13:24] Ilan Tochner: the lag you get when someone new enters a sim (even after all our optimizations) has a lot to do with the inventory queries
[13:24] Ilan Tochner: lot*
[13:24] Minethere Always: yea
[13:25] Ilan Tochner: so when several people with thousands (or more) items all login at once you get a lot more lag than we'd like
[13:25] Minethere Always: i never get lag-))
[13:25] Minethere Always: 'cept in sl
[13:25] Minethere Always: keep that in the summary will ya
[13:26] Ilan Tochner: (which should be avoidable with enough optimizations - but we'll probably only work on it enough for now to resolve the current problem so it doesn't delay the Kitely Market)
[13:26] Min Tigerpaw: well ....can't say that .... I feel Kitely Plazza get slower every week !
[13:26] Minethere Always: not for me Min
[13:26] Minethere Always: i use lowest draw tho
[13:27] Min Tigerpaw: maybe it's the viewr setting ..I'll check
[13:27] Ilan Tochner: Kitely Plaza was community built and has a LOT of assets that get streamed to you when you log in
[13:27] Minethere Always: maybe, yea
[13:28] Dundridge Dreadlow: are there any issues with viewer side caching and streaming of assets ?
[13:28] Ilan Tochner: anyway, the growing size of your inventory is slowing you down
[13:28] Min Tigerpaw: but there is lag with other operations as well ..... terraforming works awfully slow for me
[13:28] Ilan Tochner: even a cached asset generates some queries
[13:28] Ada Radius: gack
[13:29] Ilan Tochner: also, each texture needs to be uncompressed before display and that can cause a lot of stress on people's viewers
[13:29] Ada Radius: maybe I can stash all my stuff on a spare world and box up whatever I'm done with
[13:29] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..and with a large cache, that produces more objects to check, figures.
[13:30] Ilan Tochner: anyhow, we're working on optimizing the gestures queries during the login process which should help resolve the current login problems and speed up logins for most of you
[13:30] mat mahogany: kool TY Ilan,
[13:30] Minethere Always: ? ?? ? klappy klappy klapaloossa ? ?? ?
[13:31] mat mahogany: (mat goes hunting for chocolate)
[13:31] Ilan Tochner: we've also implemented (but haven't rolled it out yet) a feature you requested to get a report on which items were filtered out during OAR exports
[13:31] Minethere Always: good info to know also
[13:31] Dundridge Dreadlow: good good
[13:32] Ada Radius: that will be very helpful
[13:32] Ilan Tochner: the report for each such item includes its name, UUID and coordinates so you'll be able to know what wasn't backed up
[13:32] Min Tigerpaw: yes sounds good
[13:32] mat mahogany: so im guessing these are items that are not saved as part of the oar?
[13:32] Ilan Tochner: it also states whether the reason was because it didn't have Export perm or didn't have Copy+Transfer
[13:32] Minethere Always likes transparency
[13:32] Ilan Tochner: everything in a region is saved as part of the OAR
[13:33] Ilan Tochner: but some items get filtered out by our system
[13:33] Ilan Tochner: to prevent things that shouldn't be exported from leaving Kitely
[13:33] Ilan Tochner: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-new ... rmissions/
[13:33] mat mahogany: so protecting the originators rights?
[13:33] Ilan Tochner: and the Export flag items which have Export off
[13:34] Ilan Tochner: yes, the goal is to protect content creators from having our own system used to steal their goods
[13:34] Minethere Always: i could see my using that to fine tune my oars
[13:34] Ada Radius: a big selling point for content creators
[13:35] Ilan Tochner: yep
[13:35] mat mahogany: deffo,
[13:35] Minethere Always: btw, i am going to bring in some cool mesh cars that drive in my next one
[13:35] mat mahogany: its easy to have things imported, and ive got somethings that arent mine here but im slowely replacing them
[13:35] Ilan Tochner: great
[13:35] Minethere Always: will be fun
[13:35] Min Tigerpaw: cool MIne!
[13:35] Minethere Always: -))
[13:36] mat mahogany: but to be honest I think some of the so called originators in Osgrid arent the real originators, from the likes of SL
[13:36] Ilan Tochner: We've also finished implementing the Export flag controls (also haven't rolled this out yet) so Kitely Market test delivery items will use that logic before the Kitely Market opens
[13:36] mat mahogany: so this feature will be good for creators who want to protect their stuff
[13:37] Minethere Always: creator names don't allow follow the oars in osgrid
[13:37] mat mahogany: and makes the market more marketable too
[13:37] Ada Radius: so no-copy sales will default to no-export?
[13:37] Ilan Tochner: We hope to roll out all the aforementioned improvements sometime early next week
[13:38] Minethere Always: always..not allow
[13:38] Dundridge Dreadlow: cool
[13:38] Ilan Tochner: You explicitly control Export for items sold in the Kitely Market
[13:38] Ada Radius: right, but can no-copy items be exported?
[13:38] Ilan Tochner: the Copy+Transfer logic is used just for items that didn't originate from the marketplace
[13:39] mat mahogany: so how can you do someting like that in goods that have originated from the market place Ilan
[13:39] Ilan Tochner: you can theoretically have a no-perm item be exportable if it is sold in the Kitely Market (but not if it is sold inworld)
[13:39] mat mahogany: Ilan?
[13:39] Ada Radius: OK
[13:39] mat mahogany: unless you specify that it is all perms of course?
[13:39] Ada Radius: theoretically. But if it's on the sim, then no. But if wearing and hypergridding then maybe
[13:40] Min Tigerpaw: good to know
[13:40] Ilan Tochner: All items sold via the marketpalce have the Export flag added to them. The configuration of that flag is up to the selling merchant.
[13:40] Ilan Tochner: We'll use the same export logic when we enable hypergid Ada
[13:40] Minethere Always: i look forward to wearing "I love Kitely" t-shirts out into the metaverse-))
[13:40] mat mahogany: so when there is something for sale, there will be options for it to be export or not?
[13:40] Ada Radius: OK
[13:41] Ada Radius: I don't get the interaction between perms and export flag yet. Yes I've read the post
[13:41] Ilan Tochner: You can see it in the blog post we wrote about the marketplace Mat. (or just create your own store and play with it)
[13:41] mat mahogany: ok ty
[13:41] Ilan Tochner: let me try to clarify:
[13:41] mat mahogany: ive marked a spot, and i will play now TY
[13:42] Ilan Tochner: When you try to take an item that didn't originate from the Kitely Market then we use the Copy+Transfer requirement. If the item (or one of its components) doesn't have both perms then we filter it out.
[13:43] Ilan Tochner: When you try to take an item that did originate from the Kitely Market then we look at the value of the Export flag that is attached to it.
[13:43] Minethere Always: i am curious tho...if i HG out with no perm items will end up naked????
[13:43] Ilan Tochner: Our system will filter out items which you aren't allowed to take outside Kitely.
[13:43] Stiofain MacTomais: a kitely tag when hging will prob do a lot to raise profile of kitely
[13:44] Minethere Always: guess i will need to be careful then how I dress for travel-))
[13:44] mat mahogany: Oh Minethere
[13:44] Minethere Always: eh?
[13:44] mat mahogany: need a travel suit creation with full export
[13:44] mat mahogany: what a great idea
[13:44] Minethere Always: i have that
[13:44] Dundridge Dreadlow: ...how are textures handled when hypergridding ? How does the "enemy" grid access the textures ?
[13:44] Minethere Always: yes mat-))
[13:45] Dundridge Dreadlow: (or scripts)
[13:45] mat mahogany: travel clothes, lol
[13:45] Minethere Always: -))
[13:45] Ilan Tochner: the grid makes a request using UUID the system decides what it wishes to return (if anything)
[13:46] mat mahogany: ive just made Mode mahogany.
[13:46] mat mahogany: hehehe
[13:46] Minethere Always: -))
[13:46] Min Tigerpaw: hehe ...... well never seen Terminator? ...u allways travel naked when space jumping
[13:46] Minethere Always: lol
[13:47] Ilan Tochner: Any clothing you buy that has Export turned on or isn't from the Kitely Market and has both Copy and Transfer will be exportable via hypergrid
[13:47] Minethere Always: ok
[13:47] Ilan Tochner: any more questions about this subject?
[13:47] Dundridge Dreadlow: ok - presumably then it tracks origin grid ? Can scripts transfer and access original grid textures ?
[13:48] Ilan Tochner: You only have access to worn items and items in a Suitcase folder in your inventory
[13:48] Carole Osei is online.
[13:48] Minethere Always: oh..so if it is worn it is fine?
[13:49] Ilan Tochner: we will filter out worn items as well Minethere
[13:49] Minethere Always: ok..np...ty
[13:50] mat mahogany: So a new range of HG safe clothing coming up
[13:50] Carole Osei is offline.
[13:50] Minethere Always: great idea mat-))
[13:50] Minethere Always: use the concept
[13:50] mat mahogany: ty,
[13:50] Minethere Always: smart
[13:51] Min Tigerpaw: must include skin and hair though
[13:51] Minethere Always: true
[13:51] Minethere Always: shape for those who dont know how to do that
[13:51] mat mahogany:
[13:51] Dundridge Dreadlow: I'm thinking active scripted items that interact/change and wondering how much will survive, especially depending on "enemy" grid trustworthyness
[13:52] mat mahogany: sorry Ilan, did you say this would also be affecting imports too?
[13:52] mat mahogany: will filtering also filter out items that should not be imported?
[13:53] Ilan Tochner: assume you only have access to things that are worn or put in a defined folder in the inventory. When HGing it is also improtant to take evil grids into consideration.
[13:53] mat mahogany: and also when creating an or importing an OAR?
[13:53] Ilan Tochner: filtering is done for outgoing items not incoming ones (we have no way of knowing what should or shouldn't be imported)
[13:53] Ilan Tochner: done*
[13:53] mat mahogany: ok,
[13:54] Minethere Always: what is an "evil enemy" grid?????
[13:54] Minethere Always: gets knives out!!!
[13:54] Min Tigerpaw: SL
[13:54] Dundridge Dreadlow: hahahaha
[13:54] mat mahogany: lol
[13:54] Minethere Always: -))
[13:54] Ilan Tochner: one that intends to steal contnet or hurt the HG traveler
[13:54] Dundridge Dreadlow: some grids aren't as nice as Kitely
[13:55] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..and some grids are run by random individuals...
[13:55] Minethere Always: true
[13:55] mat mahogany: plus ones that try to block the freedom of kitely too i assume
[13:55] Ilan Tochner: that's why merchants should pay close attention to what they give the Export permission to
[13:55] Minethere Always: some may in the future
[13:55] mat mahogany: by slowing it down
[13:55] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..and if I have a script with security protocols in it...
[13:55] Minethere Always: gird wars are common
[13:56] mat mahogany: sounds to me like Kitely has got a lot more going for it
[13:56] Ilan Tochner: assume your script is running in an environment that isn't secure. Whatever the script "knows" so does the grid owner
[13:56] mat mahogany: in as much as its run well and Ilan and co are well on top of things
[13:56] Dundridge Dreadlow: yeah, that's what I figured..
[13:56] Dundridge Dreadlow: hence enemy grids
[13:57] Minethere Always: i wouldnt let special scripts out
[13:57] Ilan Tochner: exactly. like dark alleyways, you can come out the other side just fine or get your head bashed in and there is little way to know what type of alley you're going into until you've actually been inside it
[13:58] Dundridge Dreadlow: Unfortunately, I have to redesign most of my scripts, inclduing a lot of hidden back end stuff
[13:58] Minethere Always: that will be good for u in the long run tho DD
[13:59] Dundridge Dreadlow: true, this time I can design for multi-grid use, and SL.. but I'm gonna lose thousands of lines of code, and a hell of a lot of work
[13:59] mat mahogany: i think the export filtering will be good for all the markets
[13:59] Dundridge Dreadlow: sigh
[13:59] Minethere Always: yes
[13:59] Dundridge Dreadlow: works out better in the long run, but a lot of work to get everything working properly
[13:59] Minethere Always: yea
[13:59] mat mahogany: but as a designer, the server side Lightshare took out loads of hassle for me once i understood what was happening
[13:59] Ilan Tochner: as I stated in our previous meeting, we're actually storing a lot more info than just an Export flag so we'll be able to add more IP protection down the road
[14:00] mat mahogany: its just getting used to it
[14:00] mat mahogany: and its going to make things easier
[14:00] Dundridge Dreadlow: is any of that going to be scriptable ? To check grids and the like ?
[14:00] Dundridge Dreadlow: The only info I've found so far is "Opensim"
[14:00] Dundridge Dreadlow: (but I haven't poked it hard yet)
[14:01] Ilan Tochner: the Export mechanism is part of the Kitely Market logic, it's going to remain proprietary to Kitely.
[14:01] mat mahogany: i love it Ilan well done
[14:01] Minethere Always: do u have any idea when you will implement 7.5 os?
[14:01] Ilan Tochner: There is a competing Export perm being pushed by Avination.
[14:01] Minethere Always: yes
[14:02] Ilan Tochner: Not yet Minethere, we may delay until 0.7.6 which shouldn't be that far off (there are issues in 0.7.5 that we don't want to have to deal with before the marketplace opens)
[14:02] Minethere Always: ok..sounds good
[14:03] mat mahogany: ok, guys im going to have to go now
[14:03] Ilan Tochner: We've gotten some big wins this past week in the Kitely Market.
[14:03] Ilan Tochner: bye Mat
[14:03] Minethere Always: tc mat-))
[14:03] mat mahogany: ill leave mat logged in to catch up on blogg
[14:03] Ada Radius: bye Mat
[14:03] Dundridge Dreadlow: Can I request a "Kitely" header somewhere on llHTTPRequest please, probably on the shard header or something
[14:03] Min Tigerpaw: cu Mat
[14:03] mat mahogany: ty all been interesting,
[14:03] Minethere Always: oh Ilan..want to say who?
[14:03] mat mahogany: XXX
[14:04] Stiofain MacTomais: cu mat
[14:04] Ilan Tochner: For Example, I reviewed vMotional Animations's first 20 items yesterday
[14:05] Ilan Tochner: And she already sold to one person inworld
[14:05] Minethere Always: cool
[14:05] Minethere Always: wonderful
[14:05] Min Tigerpaw: gee ..sonds good
[14:05] Min Tigerpaw: *sounds
[14:05] Ilan Tochner: anyone been talking to additional potential merchants?
[14:06] Minethere Always: a couple i mentioned it again
[14:06] Minethere Always: and i am always prmoting kitely
[14:06] Ada Radius: yes, but no dice for re the beta SL people. As one said: SL pays me to be here, I
[14:06] Ada Radius: 'm not going anywhere"
[14:07] Ada Radius: SL pays me to be there too, my monthly allowance exceeds the US$76 premium fee, but upload charges make a huge difference for someone like me
[14:07] Ilan Tochner: doens't have to go anywhere just add another presence
[14:07] Ada Radius: I know.
[14:07] Ada Radius: but it's a hard sell
[14:08] Ilan Tochner: I know
[14:08] Ada Radius: the time involved the biggest issue, converting from SL to OS. Creating listings on a different system. i have yet to get a Kitely listing correct the first time through.
[14:08] Doc Phair: well, I'll be sharing the news about kitely
[14:08] Ilan Tochner: but I think suggesting that they just list a few items and see how it goes can be useful?
[14:08] Ada Radius: I have done that
[14:08] Minethere Always: cool Doc-))
[14:08] Ilan Tochner: Thank you Doc
[14:08] Dundridge Dreadlow: yep, that's good
[14:09] Dundridge Dreadlow: I probably should just put some unscripted items on there
[14:09] Minethere Always: let them sl ppl enjoy a full free region for a while
[14:10] Ada Radius: I've said all that. The most important resource for creators is time. and making listings on a new marketplace is a booger.
[14:10] Dundridge Dreadlow: still easier than boxing stuff
[14:10] Ilan Tochner: How about just adding 1 or 2 of their best selling items.
[14:10] Doc Phair: that has been my challenge is familiarizing myself with a new place... not everything works the same as in SL
[14:11] Minethere Always: true Doc
[14:11] Minethere Always: once i left sl i never looked back tho
[14:11] Doc Phair: I'm not a merchant in SL, but I think the idea of trying a few items here is a good one
[14:11] Savino van_Meirhaeghe is online.
[14:11] Ada Radius: right - the transition to OS has been very difficult - I've had to postpone listing all ov my nonhumans, because of the attachment issues. I'm not going back to SL, except for the theater stuff, but the transition to merchant here has been very difficult.
[14:12] Dundridge Dreadlow: SL feels .more like home though, even though I'm not there much now, it's like moving country in a lot of ways
[14:12] Minethere Always: attachments will be fixed soon
[14:12] Ruby ODegee_2 is online.
[14:12] Doc Phair: agreed, DD ... but here it's not cost prohibited like SL
[14:12] Doc Phair:
[14:13] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..and most of my stuff is in the other country, heh
[14:13] Dundridge Dreadlow: yeah, the limits are gone here
[14:13] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..along with the lag
[14:13] Ilan Tochner: OpenSim 0.7.6 should have multiple attachments per point
[14:13] Minethere Always: yes
[14:14] Ada Radius: I'd rather create here, knowing that I can export anywhere. For the business, that just makes more sense long term. To sell that idea to SL creators who are making money there, it's going to take some time. After marketplace is open and working, it should go better. Or better incentives, maybe. SL was very generous to the beta people, and they expect the same anywhere.
[14:14] Doc Phair: I've been able to run the viewer on my macbook air here... couldn't do that on SL
[14:14] Minethere Always: cool Doc
[14:14] Ada Radius: right. I can upload 500 textures here, couldn't do that iSL, even if I wanted to pay the fees
[14:15] Stiofain MacTomais: i think most sl sellers work to just pay tier if they thought about it they wud realise they need to only sell a fraction of what they sell on sl to break even
[14:15] Doc Phair: agreed
[14:15] Minethere Always: true Stio
[14:15] Doc Phair: and I've only been here 1 day!
[14:15] Ilan Tochner:
[14:15] Dundridge Dreadlow: indeed
[14:15] Ada Radius: the people I've been talking to are taking a profit out of SL. One beta SL person pays for her vacations every year with it, about $4000 a year, she said
[14:16] Ilan Tochner: I think a few testimonial blog posts that we could point to could help
[14:16] Ilan Tochner: (something not on our site)
[14:16] Ada Radius: I never made more than about $1000, net of tier, but I suk at marketing
[14:16] Minethere Always: i will do a kitely blog then....sometime soon
[14:16] Doc Phair: my main reason for checking out kitely was to setup an education region where can invite my students
[14:16] Ilan Tochner: thank you Minethere
[14:16] Doc Phair: I'll be posting about that on my own blog and twitter
[14:16] Minethere Always: -))
[14:16] Minethere Always: i have been meaning to
[14:16] Ilan Tochner: thank you Doc
[14:17] Doc Phair: soon as I get around some interesting issues ... ah, the learning curve
[14:17] Minethere Always: nods
[14:17] Ada Radius: after SL screwed over the educators, Kitely seems the place to be, unless you want to spend the resources to host your own grid.
[14:17] Stiofain MacTomais: whats ur blog addrss doc?
[14:18] Doc Phair: I'll be setting a new one up
[14:18] Doc Phair: I can let you know when I do
[14:19] Ruby ODegee_2 is offline.
[14:19] Ilan Tochner: I've been following up with merchants who opened stores but haven't listed anything yet
[14:19] Ilan Tochner: offering help
[14:19] Ilan Tochner: most people who got back to me stated lack of time as the main holdup
[14:20] Doc Phair is online.
[14:20] Ada Radius: I appreciate you checking my listings. I'm still having problems going through the sequence in the right order - I'm a right brained artist
[14:21] Ilan Tochner: the parts next to the picture are fixed, you change them just once. Then you go down and start setting values for variations
[14:22] Ada Radius: no, you don't go down. you go down for a bit, then turn left, then right, then down some more
[14:22] Ada Radius: and for me, that's hard to do
[14:23] Stiofain MacTomais: i think doing it "blind" without having option to see what ur potential customer will see is a big prob tho i understand is a seperate job to do
[14:23] Ada Radius: yah, I have enough up now that I'll wait for that before continuing, and the process makes me cranky. Spend the time on building my emporium sim.
[14:24] Ilan Tochner: I agree Stio but not much we can do with this until the buyer-side interface is implmeneted
[14:24] Ada Radius: at some point I hope you smooth out the listing process, but I realize you need to do other tasks first
[14:25] Dundridge Dreadlow: (I think a lot of people will be happier when the preview is available, even if purchasing is not)
[14:25] Ada Radius: yah
[14:26] Ilan Tochner: I advise on listing as many high quality items now as you can Ada. When the marketpalce opens there will be a period of time when all existing active users will probably buy a lot to close gaps in their inventories. Waiting until the marketpalce opens means you'll be losing those sales to other merchants.
[14:26] Doc Phair: time for me to go... nice meeting all of you!
[14:26] Minethere Always: tc Doc..nice meeting you-))
[14:26] Ilan Tochner: Bye Doc, thank you for attending
[14:26] Ada Radius: I know, Ilan, but it's very difficult for me to do, as I said. I got over a hundred items up, and the thought of going in there again fills me with dread
[14:27] Dundridge Dreadlow: I'll load a few more unscripted items, but it's weird, feels unfinished to me
[14:27] Doc Phair is offline.
[14:27] Ilan Tochner: You can upload useful textures and other building components
[14:27] Ada Radius: so I know I've given it a reasonable shot
[14:27] Ilan Tochner: there is obious demand for them
[14:28] Dundridge Dreadlow: (my textures are MY textures !) hahaha
[14:28] Stiofain MacTomais: yea i think u shud stock a creators/builders shop on plaza
[14:29] Ilan Tochner: I think some of your unique characters could sell quite well Ada. There is more competition for regular human skins/shapes/etc.
[14:29] Ada Radius: I hope so. i had to put them on hold until I can sort out the attachment issues. miney said that would be fixed soon and is an OS issue?
[14:30] Ilan Tochner: OpenSim 0.7.6 supports multiple attachments the current version doesn't
[14:30] Minethere Always: nods
[14:30] Ada Radius: I can't get any of my imported prim items to consistently keep an attachment point
[14:30] Minethere Always: avination contributed that fix
[14:30] Minethere Always: you need to do a slam bit Ada
[14:31] Ada Radius: so all those critters are broken
[14:31] Ada Radius: slam bit?
[14:31] Dundridge Dreadlow: I've had moving attachment problems too
[14:31] Minethere Always: getting link
[14:31] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..things getting reset to default positions or similar
[14:32] Minethere Always: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Permissions
[14:32] Minethere Always: ok..that is different issue...sorry
[14:32] Minethere Always: lol
[14:32] Minethere Always: my mind is going quickly
[14:33] Ada Radius: ty Miney! I didn't know that. but I don't think it is a perms issue.
[14:33] Minethere Always: but for attachments attach it correctly then detach then reattach
[14:33] Ada Radius: I do that. Many times the thing just disappears
[14:33] Stiofain MacTomais: does anyone know what happened ohn lang?
[14:33] Minethere Always: ugh..ok
[14:33] Minethere Always: i dont Stio
[14:33] Dundridge Dreadlow: ..I have been having big problems with some of my mesh objects though, I seem to lose textures when the LOD model changes
[14:34] Dundridge Dreadlow: ...and losing textures completely on server reset
[14:34] Ilan Tochner: Ada and Dundridge please provide more info about these problems in the forums so I can direct Oren to them
[14:34] mat mahogany is offline.
[14:34] Ada Radius: OK, ty Ilan
[14:34] Dundridge Dreadlow: ok
[14:35] Ilan Tochner: anything else anyone wishes to share / discuss?
[14:35] Ada Radius: if I rebuild everything it goes better. the imports are all dead
[14:35] Ada Radius: nope, I posted or chatted all my issues
[14:36] Ilan Tochner: anyone else?
[14:36] Ada Radius: in other meetings or forum posts
[14:36] Stiofain MacTomais: nope
[14:36] Minethere Always: the community item on the agenda?
[14:36] Ilan Tochner: I thought we discussed it?
[14:36] Ada Radius: it's after 2:30
[14:36] Minethere Always: oh
[14:36] Minethere Always: lol
[14:36] Ada Radius: I'm gonna go finish my store and get stuff in it, and at K. Plaza
[14:37] Ada Radius: ty ty everyone
[14:37] Minethere Always: ok..cool then
[14:37] Ilan Tochner: great, so let's wrap up for today
[14:37] Ada Radius: laters, stay cool everyone
[14:37] Min Tigerpaw: k ... bye guys
[14:37] Ada Radius:
[14:37] Dundridge Dreadlow: mostly tech stuff today
[14:37] Minethere Always: tc all
[14:37] Ada Radius is offline.
[14:37] Ilan Tochner: bye all

<<Ilan Tochner: sorry about that, Marstol gave me a chair with other sits but it didn't work (at least not for me) so I left these>>

Seriously Ilan? You felt the need to mention the chairs didn't work in the meeting, but you never bothered to say anything to me about it? Maybe I could have fixed them. Did you ever finish the teleport system at the space station or is that still fubar? I wonder if you blame me for that when I'm not around too?

Hi Marstol,

I didn't blame you for the chairs not working, people offered to make chairs with better sits so I gave you credit for already giving me ones and stated they aren't being used because I couldn't get them to work...

I tried placing the ones you sent me at the beginning of the previous meeting and spent several minutes trying to get them to work. They didn't so I stopped delaying the beginning of the meeting and continued with the planned agenda. It wasn't a big deal and I forgot about it until people complained about the chair sit animations at the beginning of this week's meeting. I then mentioned that you had given me chairs already but that I couldn't get them to work.

No offense, and definitely no blame, was directed at you. I don't think anyone at the meeting interpreted my comment as implying you were somehow to blame for the chairs (which I've placed a few weeks ago) only having one sit animation. I apologize for making you feel attacked.

Please don't patronize me. I don't feel attacked Ilan. People generally attack head on and I can handle that. I was irked that you mentioned there was a problem with the chair at the meeting, two weeks after I gave it too you without ever telling me they didn't work. I didn't feel it was tactful and I still don't. I'd have been happy to fix them had I known.

Hi Marstol,

How would you have felt if when people offered to make alternative chairs I didn't mention the fact that you had already given me ones to use?

As I stated, I only remembered to try placing the chairs in the last meeting and, as it wasn't a big deal that they didn't work, I didn't remember to contact you about it. The only reason I remembered them in this week's meeting was because people mentioned the chair sit animations (you can tell people were discussing this issue before my own chat log began). When people offered to give me new ones I felt it was fair to give you credit for already doing so in the past. Should I not have done so?

As you know, I get a LOT of IMs, emails, forums questions, etc. each day so I hope you can understand how I might not have had time to place the chairs when you first sent them to me, how I could have forgotten about them while dealing with other things, and why I wouldn't have remembered to contact you about them after spending more than 2 hours answering questions in last week's meeting. As you know, when I have a problem with something not working, and I'm not distracted enough to forget about it, I contact the person who created it and ask them to address the issue. I hope that the fact that I didn't do so regarding the chairs would indicate to you that I simply forgot about them while working on other things.

Login issues
There has been a recent problem with people failing to login on the first (and sometimes multiple) attempt. This is due to the viewer timing out on responses for standard pre-setup gestures that are taking a long time to be transferred from the inventory service to the sim on first login. This happens because those get transferred to the sim during the connection phase and the query that returns them is not very optimized (standard OpenSim code, not Kitely's fault).

This isn't a problem when there aren't many items in inventories, but as some people have a lot more items now (30,000+ in some cases), the cumulative effect causes this to slow down to a level where some people time out while they login.

Kitely is working on optimizing those login queries so that the process won't time out. Once this is done people should login faster and therefore the viewer won't time out.

Read the chat log for more details.

OAR export features
Kitely has implemented (but not yet rolled out) a user-requested feature which reports on which items were filtered out during OAR exports. The report for each such item includes its name, UUID and coordinates so you'll be able to know what wasn't backed up. It also states whether the reason was because it didn't have Export perm or didn't have Copy+Transfer.

They've also finished implementing the Export flag controls (also haven't rolled this out yet) so Kitely Market test delivery items will use that logic before the Kitely Market opens.

They hope to roll out all the aforementioned improvements sometime early next week.

The chatlog includes more detailed discussion on this -- read it up to [14:04] approx.

Thank you for summarizing the main issues Dot

I read what you stated Ilan. No you should have not mentioned that Marstol gave you some chairs that didn't work without talking to me first. I do realize you are busy Ilan and I'm glad you are. It means your grid is growing. It seems my time and my feeling on the matter doesn't count. You dismissed what I said and treated me as if I were reacting like a hysterical woman.

I have spent more than a year talking up Kitely (and it's CEO) and volunteering to help with Kitely projects when ever I've been able to. Kitely is still the best deal out there as far as I can see and I will continue to do so. I haven't written in my blog lately and I didn't have much of a following, but I do have more posts about Kitely on it than anything else. I think those things should afford me at least a modicum of respect. Apparently you disagree.

You contacted me (and others) because I'd opened a store, but hadn't uploaded anything yet. Do you think it's helpful to me as a prospective merchant when the CEO of Kitely talks about items I gave him that didn't work? I would hope a customer would contact me for resolution prior to complaining about my merchandise. Being busy is not a good excuse for being dismissive and rude to me.

Hi Marstol,

I have a lot of respect for you and by no means take the help you've given us and other Kitely users for granted.

I didn't complain about the chairs you gave me, I gave you credit for having given me chairs when you weren't present to claim that credit yourself. In my comment I preempted the question of "so why aren't they in use" by people who weren't in the previous meeting with an explanation (the people who were present in both meetings had seen me try to get them to work). These forums are filled with support requests from reputable merchants who've had some script or other not work for them. There is no shame in that, it usually just means that some script that might work in Second Life requires some tweaking to work here. They ask for help, someone assists them, and the problems are resolved. Oren is an amazing developer, and he too has bugs sometimes. People report them in these forums, he hunts them down, they get fixed, end of story. Neither Oren's nor those merchants' honor and reputation are tarnished by having those forum threads read by other people.I really think you're taking my comment and making more of it than what I intended or other people read into it.

I don't think you're being hysterical, I care how you feel and I think you're reading something into a comment with a different intention than the one it was written with. You see malice or indifference in my comments where my intention was quite the opposite. That is why I'm trying to explain how events transpired - you misinterpreted my meaning and I don't want you to be left with the wrong impression.

Thank you Ilan. That takes the sting out. I never thought your intent was malicious.

I know Oren chases down lots of bugs and you field an enormous amount of flack (from people like me for instance). I don't think I'd be remiss in saying you both want the opportunity to correct problems. If someone doesn't tell you something needs fixed, how can you know it's broken and how can you improve? That being said, I'll let it go.