For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Provide feedback, criticism or praise about Kitely, or suggest new features
User avatar
Snoots Dwagon
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 pm
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 91 times

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

That brings up a question I've wondered for some time Ilan: does bare land significantly impact the server? I don't mean the viewer, because if the land is beyond the draw distance it shouldn't impact the viewer. But how much impact does additional empty land have on a server? I suspect that question is important to those trying to decide proportion of land to water. (For that matter... does additional ocean impact the server?)

Thanks!
These users thanked the author Snoots Dwagon for the post:
Alexina Proctor
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 3261 times
Been thanked: 3348 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Snoots,

Kitely worlds are VarRegions, the server cost for additional empty land is in the amount of RAM required to hold the world's terrain and the additional parcels information. In other words, the empty land itself isn't much of a concern with the amount of RAM Kitely provides each world type.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post (total 2):
Alexina ProctorKat Lemieux
User avatar
Snoots Dwagon
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 pm
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 91 times

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

Ilan Tochner wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:35 pm
Hi Snoots,

Kitely worlds are VarRegions, the server cost for additional empty land is in the amount of RAM required to hold the world's terrain and the additional parcels information. In other words, the empty land itself isn't much of a concern with the amount of RAM Kitely provides each world type.
Okay so from what I understand, performance-wise there won't be much difference between a 6x6 and 8x8, right? It's just a matter of how much land someone prefers? Will the 6x6 and 8x8 be the same price?
These users thanked the author Snoots Dwagon for the post:
Alexina Proctor
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 3261 times
Been thanked: 3348 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Snoots,

The impact of the land size is minimal, performance will depend on your world's World Type, on what you put in the world and what avatars do inside it.

The World Type your world uses defines the amount of server resources it will get, and that defines maximum prim, avatar and land size you can have in your world. The price you will be charged for your world depends on the World Type you use for your world not on how big you make it.

To be clear, you need to have a Mega World to have a world that is larger than 4x4 regions in size and you'll pay the same whether you set that size to be 6x6 or 8x8.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post:
Alexina Proctor
User avatar
Trouble Ahead
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:47 pm
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 222 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Trouble Ahead »

For all who want to know what was going on on Tessin : we were running a Role Play system called Konk. The buider of the system , Valerious Strongborn, is not online anymore ( at least in Kitely) .
The system works with a lot of components and gives visitors HUDs out of a server that is placed on the sim by Valerious, and no mod for the owner of the world ( so no possibilities to reinstall the whole system after upgrading the world ). This server is connected to another server outside our grid. Cool thing is , that when you play all over opensim, this system will show you everywhere whats in your posession and your XP etc etc.. but when the server on your land loses contact with the main system , the scripts will go crying to each other for input , and that was I think the main case why our world was doing so bad.

I recommend all people who upgrade to check out if you have likewise systems running and also for the support of dealing with this problem it could be recommendable to check out what kind of systems the world owner runs on his or her world.
Its not only the sim design in assets etc etc that can bother performance as stated above, and on Tessin things were running well before upgrading , even our world seems to be a good example for bad sim design :D

Thank you all for the input :)
These users thanked the author Trouble Ahead for the post (total 5):
Ilan TochnerSelby EvansGraham MillsDot MatrixAlexina Proctor
User avatar
Alexina Proctor
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:32 am
Has thanked: 474 times
Been thanked: 74 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Alexina Proctor »

With ocean as an option, land at 1m below water level of 20m is not real useful. We would like to have it sailable from the first and my underwater animals need it deeper. Why the decision of 1m below rather than 10m below?
--Alexina Proctor
Co-founder with Prax Maryjasz of Sendalonde Community Library
Library: hop://grid.kitely.com:8002/Wellspring/186/32/29
Worlds: Wellspring and Calchester (visit us)
https://virtualpeers.com/
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 3261 times
Been thanked: 3348 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Alexina, the default land height in the ocean area that will be created in the upcoming feature will be 1m, i.e. 19m below the default 20m sea level.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post:
Alexina Proctor
User avatar
Alexina Proctor
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:32 am
Has thanked: 474 times
Been thanked: 74 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Alexina Proctor »

Ilan Tochner wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:27 pm
Alexina, the default land height in the ocean area that will be created in the upcoming feature will be 1m, i.e. 19m below the default 20m sea level.
Thank you, Ilan. I misunderstood. That is perfect!
These users thanked the author Alexina Proctor for the post:
Ilan Tochner
--Alexina Proctor
Co-founder with Prax Maryjasz of Sendalonde Community Library
Library: hop://grid.kitely.com:8002/Wellspring/186/32/29
Worlds: Wellspring and Calchester (visit us)
https://virtualpeers.com/
User avatar
Snoots Dwagon
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 pm
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 91 times

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

Ilan: "That's why we aren't going to implement this feature unless we're sure it will contribute enough to our business to justify the significant effort and costs of doing so."

Dwagon has feedback on this! (Imagine that! mwaahahahaha)

I understand that merging worlds brings a whole lotta questions, a lot of them in gray areas and some with no easy answers. So if I may respectfully comment on this and possibly on a "halfway" measure that might suffice.

From an OpenSim standpoint, merging worlds is relatively easy. it takes one line of command code:

LOAD MUTLIPLE OARS:
load oar --merge --<displacement x,y,z> --force-terrain OarName.oar

So speaking on a strictly technical basis, it's almost as easy as falling off a log.

But as Ilan has pointed out... conceptually speaking is a different matter. We have potentially different owners, permissions, export issues, etc etc. And as Ilan said, for some questions there are no cut-and-dry answers.

However, having seen literally thousands of worlds destroyed on Second Life due to one very bad company decision, and an entire grid and millions of dollars of items destroyed on Inworldz when that grid died... I am loathe to see worlds shut down because someone wants to move to a MegaWorld and can only take one world with them. So is there a sensible mid-way solution to this?

First the disclaimer: I know almost zero about grid back-end operations. I'm not a dev, not a grid-tech. I'm just a user... with a bit of virtual world under my belt (like many of us).

So my initial thought is: anything is better than nothing.

Or put another way... it's better to save half a world than destroy it all. With that concept in mind, let's discuss a direct world-to-world transfer (such as a 4x4 to a MegaWorld):

Exports. Whether or not an item is marked exportable seems to me irrelevant. It's the same owner, on Kitely. Different world configuration, but in many instances even the same world name. So long as it's inside Kitely and not going anywhere else, export permissions (or lack thereof) should go right along to the MegaRegion, no issues involved.

Rights and ownership: No-copy items are also irrelevant, as is no-transfer. Same owner, removing one world, merging into another. Nothing is copied, nothing is technically transferred.

So for in-world, world-to-world copies, I see no real issues involved... so long as the world owner remains the same. Estate Managers can be re-assigned once the MegaWorld is set up.

Where we get to problems is in allowing OARS to be saved and then uploaded to the new MegaWorld. My answer to that: that's the bad way to do it. That brings in all kinds of issues and problems and lions and tigers and bears. That should follow the same rules that external OARs already follow. So if someone decides to go that route, they should do so with the understanding that a lotta stuff may not re-appear on the MegaWorld.

To summarize: it's conceivably not that difficult to port multiple smaller worlds into one megaworld-- so long as it's done within Kitely. Taking it external is a whole nuther thing.

Is it needed? The answer to that is: how many customers on Kitely currently own multiple worlds that they'd like to see conglomerated into one MegaWorld? I'm guessing there are some. My thoughts on that: if I had to destroy a 4x4 (with all the time and expense involved creating it) to gain an 8x8, I wouldn't do it. That's just me. I would tend to stick with the 4x4. Perhaps a lot of other people feel the same way.

So conceivably, it might be good for Kitely commercially to implement some form of multi-world merging. This function is important enough that it's built into Opensim. Maybe it should be built into Kitely as well.

I'm sure there's some things I may not be seeing or understanding in this... but I believe the issue itself to be fairly important-- not a minor thing. I believe it's not so much a question of "should we do this?" as it is, "How do we best do this?"

Thankyew for listening to these thoughts. : )
These users thanked the author Snoots Dwagon for the post:
Ada Radius
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 5502
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 3261 times
Been thanked: 3348 times
Contact:

Re: For a limited time only: get a huge 64-region Mega World running on a dedicated server for just $99.95/month

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Snoots,

I appreciate your feedback but I'm afraid you missed a few conceptual problems that exist with merging worlds, even those belonging to the same world owner. For example, world A has items that were rezzed by users who aren't the world owner, while world B contains content and activities that those users don't wish to be associated with. In other words, some of the people who rezzed items in world A wouldn't have rezzed those items in a world that also contains content from world B. You therefore can't assume that just because both of these worlds belong to the same user that everything that they contain can also be merged into a single world without getting the permission of everyone who rezzed items inside those worlds.

This isn't a theoretical situation, we've had people contact us about some world owners uploading content into Kitely in OAR files when some of that content was provided to the world owners under conditions that those world owners hadn't respected. As you can imagine, dealing with such cases is time consuming for us.

To be clear, we're not stopping anyone from merging content outside Kitely, and people who wish to do so can use the Replace World function to import their merged OAR files into existing Kitely worlds. But for us to properly support doing this inside Kitely would require that we handle quite a lot of cases, which means spending a lot of time implementing this feature and not working on other things that can make Kitely better. We know that some people would like us to make that investment but doing so isn't justified for Mega Worlds, which we'll only be offering until the end of this month.

Similarly, it's far from clear that implementing this for Advanced Worlds will have a net positive effect for our business. As stated earlier, merging multiple OAR files into a single world requires optimization, and as many people just won't do that, the resulting merged worlds can create frustrating user experiences for the world owners and their visitors. That in turn can lead to losing more paying customers than this feature might bring in.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post (total 3):
Snoots DwagonAlexina ProctorAda Radius
Post Reply