Difference between "in-world" and" Kitely Market" perms

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Ozwell Wayfarer
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:37 pm

*tisk* good grief Handy, would it kill you to read the TOS? (Read with a heavy dose of sarcasm) :)

I dont know, but I would assume so, as it is the activation of "Transfer" which makes C/M items exportable, or maybe all three have to be ticked. Who knows?

I dug out what I believe to be the relevant passage of the ToS:

"Proprietary Rights
We claim no ownership or control over any Content submitted, posted or displayed by you on or through Kitely Services ("User Generated Content" or "Items"). You or a third party licensor, as appropriate, retain all patent, trademark and copyright to any User Generated Content you submit, post, display, or sell on or through Kitely Services and you are responsible for protecting those rights, as appropriate. By submitting, posting, displaying or selling Content on or through Kitely Services you agree to allow Kitely to handle your User Generated Content in all the ways required to provide the Kitely Services you elected to use. Kitely reserves the right to refuse to accept, post, display, transmit, or sell any User Generated Content in its sole discretion.

You represent and warrant that you have all the rights, power and authority necessary to grant the rights granted herein to any User Generated Content submitted.

You agree that when you add User Generated Content to Kitely Services you implicitly define a license ("Permissions") for what other people are allowed to do with those Items. You agree that when receiving Items from other Users you are only receiving a license to use those Items and you will claim no ownership or control over any copyrights associated with those Items. You agree to abide by the terms of use defined by Permissions. You agree that Permissions define whether the Avatar (as the term is defined below) that acquires an Item may make copies of that Item (has "Copy Permission"), modify that Item (has "Modify Permission") and/or transfer that Item to other Avatars (has "Transfer Permission").

An "Avatar" is a Kitely Account or third-party user account that is (A) capable of using Items; and (B) is capable of having a presence in only one location at a time.

Items delivered by Kitely Market (as the term is defined below) are either explicitly licensed for use outside of Kitely Services (grant you "Export Permission") or are explicitly barred from use outside of Kitely Services (are marked "No-Export"). Items not delivered by Kitely Market have an implicit Export Permission if they (A) have Copy Permission; and (B) have Transfer Permission; and (C) do not contain or use any No-Export items.

You agree that people are allowed to use Items for which they have Export Permission outside Kitely Services using the same copy, modify and/or transfer terms that they have for those Items inside Kitely Service.

You agree that people are allowed to store Items for which they have Export Permission in offline backup files. You agree that if you create a backup file, and it contains any Items that you did not create and do not have Transfer Permission for, then you will not share that file and/or those Items with other people.

You agree that people have an additional right to use Items for which they have Export Permission in one virtual space that runs on their personal computer and is not accessible to any other person, regardless of whether those Items have Copy Permission and/or Transfer Permission.

You may copy, modify, transfer, and/or export Items you create regardless of their implicit Permissions, unless these Items contain and/or use Items that you did not create.

You may define an explicit license for your Items, but it may not remove any of the rights that are granted by the Permissions, and it may not add any rights for use of Items that you did not create.

(note - I deleted the fial paragraph because its just a "blah" about copyrights and trademarks.)

TL;DR - I dont see anything there that pertains to the issue I am addressing. Nothing under "Kitely Market" either.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Graham Mills » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:33 pm

I assume you're referring to the paragraph:
Items delivered by Kitely Market (as the term is defined below) are either explicitly licensed for use outside of Kitely Services (grant you "Export Permission") or are explicitly barred from use outside of Kitely Services (are marked "No-Export"). Items not delivered by Kitely Market have an implicit Export Permission if they (A) have Copy Permission; and (B) have Transfer Permission; and (C) do not contain or use any No-Export items.
Seems OK to me but all my stuff is intended for export. I am sarcasm-blind by the way but I believe tl;dr normally comes at the top ;)
Ozwell Wayfarer wrote:*tisk* good grief Handy, would it kill you to read the TOS? (Read with a heavy dose of sarcasm) :)

I dont know, but I would assume so, as it is the activation of "Transfer" which makes C/M items exportable, or maybe all three have to be ticked. Who knows?

I dug out what I believe to be the relevant passage of the ToS:

"Proprietary Rights
We claim no ownership or control over any Content submitted, posted or displayed by you on or through Kitely Services ("User Generated Content" or "Items"). You or a third party licensor, as appropriate, retain all patent, trademark and copyright to any User Generated Content you submit, post, display, or sell on or through Kitely Services and you are responsible for protecting those rights, as appropriate. By submitting, posting, displaying or selling Content on or through Kitely Services you agree to allow Kitely to handle your User Generated Content in all the ways required to provide the Kitely Services you elected to use. Kitely reserves the right to refuse to accept, post, display, transmit, or sell any User Generated Content in its sole discretion.

You represent and warrant that you have all the rights, power and authority necessary to grant the rights granted herein to any User Generated Content submitted.

You agree that when you add User Generated Content to Kitely Services you implicitly define a license ("Permissions") for what other people are allowed to do with those Items. You agree that when receiving Items from other Users you are only receiving a license to use those Items and you will claim no ownership or control over any copyrights associated with those Items. You agree to abide by the terms of use defined by Permissions. You agree that Permissions define whether the Avatar (as the term is defined below) that acquires an Item may make copies of that Item (has "Copy Permission"), modify that Item (has "Modify Permission") and/or transfer that Item to other Avatars (has "Transfer Permission").

An "Avatar" is a Kitely Account or third-party user account that is (A) capable of using Items; and (B) is capable of having a presence in only one location at a time.

Items delivered by Kitely Market (as the term is defined below) are either explicitly licensed for use outside of Kitely Services (grant you "Export Permission") or are explicitly barred from use outside of Kitely Services (are marked "No-Export"). Items not delivered by Kitely Market have an implicit Export Permission if they (A) have Copy Permission; and (B) have Transfer Permission; and (C) do not contain or use any No-Export items.

You agree that people are allowed to use Items for which they have Export Permission outside Kitely Services using the same copy, modify and/or transfer terms that they have for those Items inside Kitely Service.

You agree that people are allowed to store Items for which they have Export Permission in offline backup files. You agree that if you create a backup file, and it contains any Items that you did not create and do not have Transfer Permission for, then you will not share that file and/or those Items with other people.

You agree that people have an additional right to use Items for which they have Export Permission in one virtual space that runs on their personal computer and is not accessible to any other person, regardless of whether those Items have Copy Permission and/or Transfer Permission.

You may copy, modify, transfer, and/or export Items you create regardless of their implicit Permissions, unless these Items contain and/or use Items that you did not create.

You may define an explicit license for your Items, but it may not remove any of the rights that are granted by the Permissions, and it may not add any rights for use of Items that you did not create.

(note - I deleted the fial paragraph because its just a "blah" about copyrights and trademarks.)

TL;DR - I dont see anything there that pertains to the issue I am addressing. Nothing under "Kitely Market" either.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Ilan Tochner » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:37 pm

Hi Ozwell,

What you're looking for is located in the 5th paragraph of the Proprietary Rights section of the TOS:

Items delivered by Kitely Market (as the term is defined below) are either explicitly licensed for use outside of Kitely Services (grant you "Export Permission") or are explicitly barred from use outside of Kitely Services (are marked "No-Export"). Items not delivered by Kitely Market have an implicit Export Permission if they (A) have Copy Permission; and (B) have Transfer Permission; and (C) do not contain or use any No-Export items.

Edit: thanks Graham, you beat me to the punch.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Handy Low » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:54 pm

I really think this should be given some prominence so that merchants are more likely to be aware of this. It runs completely counter to how one would expect it work, especially for CT-only items.

I've disabled all the vendors in my shop, and I'll be converting them to link to the respective Kitely Market pages.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Deuce Halsey » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:15 pm

Ilan Tochner wrote: I know it's a radical idea, but people selling content may want to actually read our terms of service before checking the checkbox where they indicate that they agree to them - all of this (and more) is covered in that agreement. :-)
I've actually known one person in my life who is so insanely literal and "by the book" that I suspect he probably does read every word of any TOS agreement he is asked to agree too, no matter how long it might be. The problem for the rest of us is that we're usually asked to agree to the TOS for a site before we actually get to use the site. Logical? Sure!

But it also means that we're being asked to wade through all this legalese before we're even sure that we really want to make extensive use of the site/services in question. That is a considerable investment of time to read TOS documents for sites/services that we may end up trying briefly and then abandoning. Few people here in the 21st century have the patience to invest that kind of time reading documents for services they may never use. So when faced with the classic "Do you agree to our TOS" screen, we automatically click "Yes" and move on with our lives.

Now hopefully we remember to actually go back later and read the TOS for a site/service once we have decided to actually make regular use of the resource in question. I did in fact go back and skim through the Kitely TOS a couple weeks after joining.

Relating back to the topic of this thread, I was actually aware of the fact that transferring an item C/M/T inworld also meant that the object was exportable. The thing is that I don't remember whether I learned this from reading the TOS a few weeks after starting out or from reading various Kitely documentation or forum threads later on.
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http://www.kitely.com/market?store=2704782
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Ilan Tochner » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:27 pm

Hi Handy,

I can understand how this may be counter-intuitive for some. Please remember that this Copy+Transfer content filtering was implemented years before the Export permission was made available. At that time, people on other grids which allowed OAR exports could get backups of all the items they obtained (even ones which were not CT). Kitely was the first to add any sort of content filtering to OAR exports and we later contributed that code to OpenSim so other grids will be able to offer the same type of content filtering. See: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-new ... rmissions/

We later added explicit content filtering via the Export permission system that was added as part of Kitely Market. See: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-new ... plemented/

At that point, we were left with several options for how to deal with items not originating from Kitely Market. As there were already many group builds that trusted this CT=exportable behavior, we couldn't make it more restrictive without upsetting many people who up until that point could export their entire group build to an OAR file. People also differed on what the default export flag value should be for items not originating from Kitely Market. Some felt that the default should be non-exportable so merchants won't be surprised by unexpected exports while others claimed that the default should be exportable in order to not make content migration a manually intensive task of permission changing.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Graham Mills » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:31 pm

Maybe have it as a sticky item on the Market board on the forum (if that's possible)?
Handy Low wrote:I really think this should be given some prominence so that merchants are more likely to be aware of this. It runs completely counter to how one would expect it work, especially for CT-only items.

I've disabled all the vendors in my shop, and I'll be converting them to link to the respective Kitely Market pages.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Ilan Tochner » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Hi Graham,

As per your suggestion, I moved this thread to the General Content Creation forum and made it sticky.
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:03 pm

Ilan Tochner wrote:Hi Graham,

As per your suggestion, I moved this thread to the General Content Creation forum and made it sticky.
Thank you Ilan!

I do take all your points of course regarding the TOS, and if I had a little more sleep when I was typing, I might even have found the sentence referring to this, but concur with the general feeling others express that this is not displayed prominently enough. One of Kitelys main selling points is "strong content protection with the export perm".

I would very much like to see a note added to the "Marketplace" help documentation. I know it may not be "correct" to put it there, but that where people look. When I think "TOS" I think "document outlining my and Kitelys legal obligations to each other and (in the case of the merchant) the 3rd party end user". Its just not the place I would think to look for an explanation of this stuff. Surely it belongs somewhere in the "Documentation" too?

Oh and quickly for Graham :D - TL;DR can be given as a response to a long post (in which case, would appear at the top of a respondents post) or as the summary of a long post which the poster believes nobody will read all the way through (which therefore would logically come at the bottom).
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Re: Difference between in-world and Marketplace perms

Post by Graham Mills » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:05 pm

Thanks, Ilan. In similar vein, would there be any value in creating a Google Custom Search Engine to cross-search the various Kitely sites?
Ilan Tochner wrote:Hi Graham,

As per your suggestion, I moved this thread to the General Content Creation forum and made it sticky.
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