Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Discussion and support for the Kitely Market
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Ilan Tochner
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Ada,

The perms enforced inside Kitely are those you set using your viewer. Buyers don't have more permissions for items then those you've given them.

The OAR (OpenSim Archive) format includes all the assets in the exported region (which we haven't filtered out), as well as object metadata (including perms), terrain information, parcel settings, etc.

The metadata in an OAR file is contained in XML files inside that archive. This means that people with the right tools can extract anything stored inside the OAR file and use it as they wish. Items uploaded from an OAR file into a region where the region owner has god privileges can also be taken disregarding the object perms.

When you Hypergrid teleport to another grid the items you take with you in a "suitcase" can be illegally copied if someone in that target region has god privileges and is malicious.

This is why Kitely automatically filters out content which hasn't been authorized for export from OAR files and (once we enable Hypergrid) from leaving Kitely via the Hypergrid. It is also why we don't provide world managers with god privileges anywhere in the Kitely grid, including in their own Kitely worlds. If would be IP thieves can't get to your content then they can't copy it (again, this doesn't stop copybotting which takes advantage of the viewer loophole - the viewer must have content in order to display it).

If you allow people to export content from Kitely then they will likely be able to copy it without your permission once it leaves Kitely's control. At that point you'll be left with the DMCA and other legal tools at your disposal for protecting your Intellectual Property but you won't be able to trust that the grid the content has been copied to will enforce your rights. It is up to you to decide which items you are willing to sell with the Export perm and which you are not. If you use content that has a license that requires you to protect it from illegal modifying then you shouldn't sell it with the Export permission as Kitely can't protect it once it leaves our grid.
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Constance PeregrineAda Radius
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Constance Peregrine »

good explanation-))

I would add that for kitely merchants they should make sure and set the no export box [however that is done I don't know as I have never seen it] and then maybe later on consider allowing it for some items.

For example, some item that defines you as a creator, some logo shirt for example, that you do not mind if you see it all over the metaverse eventually [not that it will be but it could be].

Many wonderful content creators create and give away freely in the Metaverse, and thus DcMAD stuff never comes into play.

But of course Kitely is not for that, but it is a combination of both, which leads to some very interesting possibilities for merchants who can see this, in many ways.

God power are obtained in the open metaverse by activating ctrl alt v which is the admin controls. Once done a person is then able to put the item in edit and force perms and change them.

Some items, by their very nature are not much susceptible to this...like animations.

This is not a problem and should not be considered such for merchants here, and only a short primer, and not the full story by any means.

As well, as in sl and any commercial grid, copybotting is done all the time. Part of doing business, of course-))

The god powers are a different critter altogether and kitely has good functions in place to protect you.

Kitely will have the nice mixture of content from opensim via people who bring such stuff in with their oars [like moi] and people who have protected content for sale.

It will be very interesting to watch...
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Ada Radius »

Thank you, great explanation! and Gack. I'm going to have to think about this. Everyone is hoping to be able to hypergrid with the skin and clothes on their back, and the artists who make this stuff are not going to be willing to see them so easily ripped off. A lot of people have been ripped off, even in grids where it's not so easy.
Yah, interesting to watch...
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Constance Peregrine »

Ada Radius wrote:Thank you, great explanation! and Gack. I'm going to have to think about this. Everyone is hoping to be able to hypergrid with the skin and clothes on their back, and the artists who make this stuff are not going to be willing to see them so easily ripped off. A lot of people have been ripped off, even in grids where it's not so easy.
Yah, interesting to watch...
Well, my perspective is opensim and not kitely specific.

Ilan can much better explain things as they are done here.

I may obfuscate the matter with my words rather than clarify them properly. And, I tend to talk to much....lolol

It is not so easily "ripped off" as you say, it is more of a mind-set thing to understand some things which are different and specific to kitely.

It will be cool I think-)))
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Isis Ophelia »

Ada how I understand this information is that if you flag your products to be transferable for the customer and if your customer asks for an export of his region, the OAR can contain your item because your customer got transfer permissions from you. Once he got his OAR, he can restore it in any region of his choice, for example in a standalone region in his PC and will get the sculpt maps in his data base. He can then rez the object on the ground and export as .xlm file or use Second Inventory to export to his PC. The item will have him as creator. I have not used hyperteleporting so I do not know how that works. But I understand, if I sell a product with transfer permissions, the customer can worn my shoes and hyperteleport to an open grid, wearing them. I assume he could then rez my shoes on the ground in that open grid and export them as .xlm? not sure about this.

For myself it has become clear that I can use the Kitely Marketplace to sell only to the Kitely members, as I must make my products no transfer. No idea how sucessful such products will be. As long as there is not a system implemented in the opensim software that allows the export of items including the original permissions per item, I do not see a possibility to sell to anyone. Except if I would finally start learning how to make my own sculpts, then I could offer my products under my own TOS and Licenses and hope the customers respect them.
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Isis,

There are some inaccuracies in your understanding.

The Transfer permission is separate from the Export permission. You can sell items in the Kitely Market with Copy+Transfer+Modify but without the Export permission. This means that people who buy those items will get what is referred to as "full perm items" and be able to do whatever they want with them inworld (in Kitely) but they still won't be able to export them from Kitely using any legal means (our system will automatically filter them out from exported OAR files and prevent them from leaving Kitely via hypergrid traveling avatars). In addition, if they include those items in other items then those items will become unexportable from Kitely as well (until the unexportable components are manually removed from them).

OAR files and hypergrid travel do allow exporting items using the original permissions per item, but once they're brought into a region outside of Kitely then people who have god privileges in that region can change those permissions if they want (other people on that grid won't be able to ignore the item permissions). From a legal perspective this isn't very different from people with god privileges illegally copybotting items - they can technically do so but it's illegal to ignore other people's IP licenses. OAR files offer a similar challenge, anyone possessing the OAR file and the right tools can technically ignore item permissions and extract the items they want, but again this isn't different from them copybotting, it's simply more convenient to do.

To summarize, you can sell items with whatever permissions you want from the Kitely Market (Copy, Transfer and/or Modify) and as long as you don't sell those items with the Export perm, then people won't be able to take them out of Kitely using any legal means. As long as they are inside Kitely all the object perms will be enforced.
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Isis Ophelia »

RL was calling urgently so had to hit submit and run.

What I want to add it's agree with Minethere, Kitely marketplace opens new exciting possibilities for those merchants who have full control over each piece of their products or are original creators of all pieces and don't depend on Licenses. Kitely offers them a bigger customer market if they decide to sell with export permissions, their customers can take to any grid they wish. Many customers will love this. I assume that those merchants will ask for higher prices than for not exportable items, as I have seen for example in the Total Avatar online shop. As the customers will probably purchase only 1 time and port to many grids, the higher price is fair.

Besides the bigger market, merchants receive their payments direct to Paypal, that is really great. I wish I could take advantage of this great service. But maybe in the future, if I find a way to have my own materials.
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Dot Macchi »

Isis, I hope you will consider selling your creations, even if to Kitely-only customers. Some of us would appreciate access a wider range of goods within the Kitely grid, even if they cannot be taken outside.

If I understand correctly, you should be able to set up the perms exactly as you would have them in SL (i.e. matching the licence terms), but then disallow the additional export option. That would prevent the items from leaving Kitely, either by saving them as part of an OAR or by wearing them while hypergridding. So you would be following the terms of the licences, and have a (growing) customer base here in Kitely.
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Ada Radius »

I agree, Dot, and I think Kitely will grow enough to make it worth while. If I'm wrong, then I will still be farther ahead than I was iSL, as I'll have all of my designs on inexpensive and more secure Kitely sims and inventory, all of which I can easily back up onto my hard drives. I do plan on exporting eventually as well, after I get a better understanding of how it works on the recipient's side, and can better evaluate the risks.
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Re: Create your Kitely Market store now and get BIG benefits

Post by Constance Peregrine »

I think Isis is bringing her things in, I saw her this morning in the Plaza...she has a lot to do now....lol
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