Problem with Permissions

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Snoots Dwagon
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

I really wish there was a way to eliminate slam bits entirely on Kitely (or if not entirely, at least on individual offerings). In my experience they've always caused more problems than benefits. I'd love to see a "Disable slam bits" option in the EDIT box. Grid-wide, even better. ;D
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Snoots,

This is something that would need to be changed across OpenSim or we'll lose compatibility with other grids. As such, it's not something we're likely to do in the foreseeable future.
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Gregg Legendary »

<~Is now totally confused
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Gregg,

Linden Lab created the Slam Bit as a way to reduce implementation complexity for permission management, i.e. in order to make the Second Life developers life easier. However, while it did simplify the development of the permission system it also created a whole set of user problems relating to permission management. In other words, an early design decision by Second Life developers years ago defined how permissions are implemented in Second Life and OpenSim to this day. Because Kitely needs to maintain compatibility with existing viewers and other Opensim grids, it would be very challenging / time consuming for us to eliminate the Slam Bit.
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Ada Radius »

Sometimes I can't get any permissions working - uploaded assets, assets created inworld, persist in showing different perms than KM or the next owner avatar. Sometimes it's only objects, or only clothing and body layers. The day before yesterday - turned out only the left mesh eyeball had the problem, the identical right eyeball was OK, at least in that session. Other login sessions, everything seems to work OK. Some assets persist in having the problem and I end up deleting them and starting over. Some, not, or only sometimes. As Far As I Can Tell. I haven't figured out a way to isolate the problem. Big time-sucker, slows down stocking my shop in KM by far too much.

This is a bug, or set of bugs, not a feature.

Talking, aka whining, about it with SL and OS people lately. The consensus: if Kitely had a patch that worked to at least make it predictable, it would be highly highly attractive to artist merchants.
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

I verify this Ada. I just put a new item on Kitely Market today. It took literally 6 hours... the vast majority of that setting permissions, checking the settings, finding out what I had set didn't hold, resetting permissions, reboxing, copying, checking again, etc etc. I actually brought in an alt avatar from another grid just to check permissions... and was I ever glad I did.

The basic experience: Anything that could not be rezzed I put in a box and set the perms. Anything that could be rezzed I did rez, set the permissions of both item and internals, took back to inventory, stuck in the box. Took the box to inventory. Brought in the alt, handed the box, checked perms with the alt. MEEPS! Good thing I triple-checked. Three hours later, the item was finally listed.

An interesting little blip: The Alt rezzed an item, then tried to delete it. The system said, "Can't take item to inventory because it's not exportable." (Apparently triggered by trying to take it to trash when deleted.) So I took the whole Alt back to OSgrid, rezzed the box, wore the avatar... no problem. No export issues at all. So that fail-to-delete glitch was a bit odd.

Of course, permissions have been a major headache ever since LL created them. They became more of a headache when LL instituted the slam bit. Unfortunately to eliminate the slam bit issue, either all of Opensim would have to remove the slam bit property (it does cause a LOT of problems)... or (reportedly) Kitely would have to become incompatible with every other grid out there. (I'm not sure why Kitely can't just ignore the slam bit... but I'm no tech.) I suspect that by now that slam bit is pretty heavily entrenched in the entire system.

I had long forgotten how difficult it was to sell on SL. I am now remembering. On the plus side, once it's listed, it's listed. Still, it's quite a hassle. Can't change permissions in-inventory. Permissions don't always stick (server lag? lost packets?). Slam bit issues. Wheeeee! :mrgreen:
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Snoots,

To quote the Second Life wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Permissions
A "slam bit" is an informal term which refers to the "*" which appears next to the N (next owner) when changing permissions of an object in your inventory. For this reason, you'll only see the slam bit on inventory objects, not inworld ones. This is shown because next-owner permissions are only applied when the object is rezzed inworld.
This is important because Kitely Market uses the Next Owner permissions to define what permissions the object will be listed with. In other words, Kitely Market uses the permissions the object actually has, not the permissions that the slam bit indicates the object will have after it has been rezzed. There are technical reasons why it's done this way, mostly having to do with the complexity of the permissions system and how we reuse some OpenSim permissions parsing code for reading the object permissions in order to add them to Kitely Market listings.

What you can do to help you determine whether there is a slam bit that is going to change permissions is to look for the existence of an asterisks ("*") before the N (next owner) permissions of an object while it is inside your inventory. If you see one then you need to rezz the object and then retake it into inventory before trying to add it to a Kitely Market listing.
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

Yup yup and just so it's said, I'm not even hinting this is a Kitely-specific problem. Permissions issues have existed for as long as I can remember.


Has anyone ever wondered where all the "freebies" came from on SL? Some of them are legitimate; people like Arcadia just giving stuff away out of good will. However, three times (in my experience) on "that other grid" (you know, da really Super Large one) there were major, grid-wide permissions issues. On one of those occasions, items that were inside seller vending devices (even simple vending boxes) suddenly turned full-perm for no understandable reason. The word got out fast and although that grid had the hole plugged quickly, one can imagine what kind of damage was done until the bug was discovered and fixed.

After those grid-wide permissions glitches, thousands of items turned up as "freebies"... and many merchants closed shop in frustration. I was a merchant at the time and spent an entire morning quickly re-perming items in my store. (Fortunately I only had one store at that time, ... and I managed to shut down all my vending scripts before anyone bought anything.) It was a bit hectic.

So yeah, permissions issues are as old as virtual worlds... and are still a pain. (Merchant have wondered for years why there isn't a mass-permission tool that can assign the same permissions to all items in a box... and of course there's the "setting permissions in inventory" issue). I don't know if there are some new issues in Opensim code; it feels like it, because I find myself setting permissions only to find later that set didn't "take".

Fortunately one can discover such issues very quickly, just by double-checking as I did today. To my memory I've not yet seen an Opensim permission revert once it was fully set (item put in a box, taken to inventory, rezzed and permissions checked). I've even set some permissions in inventory and then moved the item into a box (for items that can't be rezzed such as sounds, etc)... and those permissions held fine. I'm thinking maybe the problems we're seeing with permissions in this thread may be caused by either Opensim lag (sometimes, lag just... lags) or a dropped packet at exactly the wrong moment. Dunno.

What I do know is what Ada says: quadruple check everything. Then check again. ;)
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Re: Problem with Permissions

Post by Ada Radius »

I had a much better day yesterday, with wearables at least - skins and universals. Slowly writing a workflow to try to avoid these issues in the first place. Two items on that list that seem to be consistently true:
*Make sure - viewer preferences - that all items uploaded or created inworld are full perm. This has to be reset after a viewer upgrade, usually.
*Use a new instance of skin, hair/browshaper, eyes, clothing layers for each new item. Once perms are set while wearing or while rezzed out in box contents, they tend to be sticky. Copying something in inventory to change a texture or other features and then trying to change perms, such as for the demo version, can be a problem. Though I can do half a dozen in a row with no problems, then have one go buggy for no apparent reason.

Bakes on Mesh seems to cause some odd behaviors, perms as well as the affecting the position of other attachments, but I haven't yet figured out a way to test it.
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