ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

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melinda lucy
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by melinda lucy »

Gregg Legendary wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:27 am
when ubit made the decision to not make allowances for faulty meshes, I was at first upset, but that was long ago and over the years I have slowly, got 0n board his train of thought, I mean its not that hard to make proper mesh or even a close to proper mesh that will work. I think the real issue in not the improper mesh but the creator not responding to the customer's complaint in a timely manor getting the issue escalated to ilan when he has bigger fish to fry...mmm fish... anywho's if an item.. especially a 15 dolla item fails like this it should be removed from the market, i know that sounds harsh but to many 15 dolla is a fortune...
Absolutely correct detection.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

I surely agree there Gregg. When someone charges $15 for an item, that says "this is a quality, viable product". It's not some $1 tidbit.

That recognized, it can be very difficult for creators to keep up with three different physics engines, several different version of Opensim, and things specific to Kitely. There are items I built on OSgrid that work just fine there, but require significant modification to work on Kitely, and then even further modification to work on Kitely Market.

Then there's the reality that a lot of items on the different markets on the Hypergrid are older items. Some of the merchants still tend their stores... some don't. Personally I don't like the idea of a merchant dropping an item on the market and then ignoring all support thereafter. That's just not right.

If I had my preferences (or any say in the matter) Ubode would have retained backward compatibility with ODE and Bullet both (fixing of course, the significant prim cut problem in Bullet). Why? Because ODE worked, and the market was (and still is) chuck full of ODE and Bullet-compliant merchandise. In a system that already had two non-compatible physics engines, Ubode unfortunately added further confusion. Under ODE our world works, it works efficiently, and that's our primary consideration. We can't use Bullet vehicles or Ubode sailing ships, but that's the knocks of having three different physics engines for Opensim instead of one fully-compatible engine. We use ODE-compatible cars and ships... and all of our buildings work properly.

Kudos to Kitely for giving world owners a choice of physics engines. Thumbs up!
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Mane Shieldmaiden »

Snoots Dwagon wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:43 am
NOTICE: Long-ol' Dwagon comment follows. This is personal opinion, based on a tad bit of experience. Nothing here is etched in granite. It's just a comment. Daring adventurers are fore-warned. ;)

As Dot noted above, we conducted some major physics engine tests on Wellspring-- using all three engines.

The unfortunate reality of things is that there are three physics engines on Opensim... and none of them are ideal. Each has problems. Here is why:

1) ODE is a reliable physics engine, but as Ilan pointed out above it can cause some physics issues if not used correctly. However, if used correctly these physics issues are minor. The functional existence of our MegaWorld proves that fact.

2) BULLET was meant to improve vehicle creation and handling... but instead just created new problems. While the physics work well (vehicles, boats, ships, planes)... there were major issues with cut or "tortured" prims. Example: a block that was hollowed to make a doorway would not allow someone to pass through the doorway. Although it looked hollow, Bullet still recognized it as solid. This was widely known from the outset... but never corrected. Instead...

3) UBODE. This could have been the solution, except for one major issue: failure to maintain backward compatibility. Ilan described this above:
Ilan wrote:"The reason ODE is used with older content is that it is able to handle meshes that are missing a collision mesh by using those meshes themselves as their collision mesh. This results in a lot of avoidable load on the server, so the OpenSim developer who developed UbODE decided to no longer allow non-phantom meshes that are missing proper collision meshes in UbODE.

That is the issue: one person decided to no longer allow non-phantom meshes that are missing collision meshes... despite the impact this would have on an already-existing wide base of ODE-compatible creations.

The alternative could have been to encourage proper mesh development while maintaining backward-compatibility with ODE. Instead, Ubode rendered hundreds (thousands?) of already-existing mesh creations non-functional, in which owners could no longer walk through doorways, cave entrances, etc. If the mesh was no-mod, it was now useless under Ubode.

We tried all three physics engines in Wellspring. In the end we decided to go with ODE, since between the three it was the least problematic (for our needs). Sure, in some instances the mesh physics surfaces in ODE can impact server performance. But this is not a constant, lag-inducing situation... especially if those meshes are employed in a proper manner. The "server impact" issue proved to be over-stated. How do we know this? Because Wellspring is absolutely full of such meshes, it's a MegaWorld (64 regions)... and it runs just fine.

Why ODE for Wellspring? Because experiencing some very-minor supposed "lag" issues is far less-impacting to visitors than not being able to walk through doorways.

Are there fixes to these issues? Yes, there are. Builders and world-owners have long learned "work-arounds"... pains that they are. For example if one wants to use an ODE building on Ubode, turn any difficult buildings phantom, then use invisible solid prims to provide walkable platforms and walls. This of course results in a marked increase in prim-use (which is a server-impact issue, especially for lower-prim worlds), it takes far more time and effort to implement, and the phantom/prim trick isn't always feasible. (Ever tried to "phantom/prim" an entire mesh cavern / cave system?)

There are those who say to "re-create the mesh so that it conforms to Ubode". But is that a realistic recommendation? The end-user (who purchased the creation) usually does not have the mesh maps necessary to re-create a build. They likely don't know how to use Blender to perform such a complex re-creation. And the original builder may not wish to mess with totally re-designing a mesh creation, may no longer engage with virtual worlds and may not even answer messages. This is reality.

Many have heard it stated, "Creators should make meshes properly in the first place". Well, Linden Lab should have implemented meshes properly when they first introduced them to virtual worlds. What does that have to do with today's reality? With respect, things are what they are and saying people "should have done" this or that doesn't change the facts of how things exist now. The "should have" sentiment doesn't help a world owner who is trying to make his/her several-hundred mesh builds work with whichever physics engine is currently driving their world. "Should have done" won't make a Bullet vehicle work on an ODE world, won't make an ODE structure work with a Ubode world, won't make Ubode compatible with uncounted existing ODE mesh creations.

This is the reality of virtual worlds as they exist today. Forgive me for being blunt here: this is mainly because people are diverse and have their personal ideas of "how things should be"... and sometimes are in position to force that opinion on all of virtual worlds regardless of what the majority of people think or need. That's why we have three different physics engines, all with their individual problems, instead of one really good one that solves those problems.

I give paws-up to improving physics and world operation. But such improvements should take into strong consideration already-existing needs. We can't expect creators and scripters to change thousands of vehicles to meet some new spec designed by one person. So the physics engine would do well to recognize older meshes and vehicles and enable them to function as intended. That is a lot more workable. That is the Gold Ring, so all of Opensim can switch to one, centralized physics engine, everywhere. No more confusion.

As Gregg states above: a good mesh should work with any physics engine. But that's not the reality of virtual worlds. Conversely, perhaps the physics engine should be able to handle existing creations as well as "good meshes". To handle one and not the other really doesn't meet the needs of the users of Opensim.

We currently have an Opensim that is riddled with three different physics engines that are not compatible with one another. That is the prime issue being discussed in this forum thread... and why that $15 building isn't working. Ideally, one physics engine would pull ODE, Bullet and Ubode together into one compatible package-- and still encourage future mesh-makers and scripters to work smarter.

While we at Wellspring would have loved to use Bullet or Ubode vehicles, after significant testing-- the Board at Wellspring unanimously voted to go with ODE... and as a builder / scripter I have to say we have far less trouble with ODE than the other physics engines. We have to build / script wisely and sanely, but we have working vehicles, working boats and ships, working airships... and most importantly of all we can actually walk through the doorways in our homes. :o

If someone buys an ODE-compatible building and has Ubode land and finds the two aren't compatible, the choice is to try to get your $$$ back from the merchant and promise to delete the creation from your inventory... or (as mentioned prior) turn the building phantom and build invisible physical floors and walls in the building. That may be fairly easy or really difficult, but those are the types of choices we have to make under the current circumstance.

It's my opinion that if a creator knows his product will not work with a certain physics engine, proper notice should be given in the product description, such as "This product is designed to work with ODE and Bullet. Ubode users will need to modify the item for compatibility." Or... the creator might include two versions: one that is ODE compatible and one that is already Ubode-modified so the buyer doesn't have to mess with all that.

Okay, I done now. :mrgreen:

***** THEN SELLORS SHOULD NOT BE SELLING MESH THAT BUYERS CANNOT USE ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE PRICED AT $15.00 AND PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING RIPPED OFF BECAUSE THE SELLOR WILL NOT RESPOND OR REFUND FOR BAD MESH. IF THEY ARE GOING TO SELL MESH IT SHOULD BE MADE ADAPTIBLE PRODUCT FOR OPEN SIM OR ANY SIM.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Constance Peregrine »

Well, I somewhat recall, and it may not be a fully clear memory, but there was quite a bit of discussion of this very thing, in the old g+ communities.

the bottom line became ubit was doing his work free, that nobody else wanted to take on the task (or even help). and those physics were what he used (in that grid that went away) and created (I guess) there. I can't think of the darn grid name...but it is not inworldz...it was some major grid which for various reasons (I think the financials) ...no not inworldz lol...it used to be a top grid. The woman in charge of it was also a (darnit what is it called) primary opensim code person who wanted ubode also.

My memories are sketchy. I probably shouldn't even comment with less than sure recollections.

Anywho, there were several people who wanted it to be backward compatible and were very upset with ubit's answer. Nothing could be done though, under the circumstances. Thus the current problems of which Kitely has a very good answer for, allowing all three.

I recall that, was it intel, a guy who did the bulletsim.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

Mane Shieldmaiden wrote: THEN SELLORS SHOULD NOT BE SELLING MESH THAT BUYERS CANNOT USE ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE PRICED AT $15.00 AND PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING RIPPED OFF BECAUSE THE SELLOR WILL NOT RESPOND OR REFUND FOR BAD MESH. IF THEY ARE GOING TO SELL MESH IT SHOULD BE MADE ADAPTIBLE PRODUCT FOR OPEN SIM OR ANY SIM.
On Kitely Market each product has a REPORT button, which allows you to report an item that doesn't live up to expectations. I've never used it and am not sure how it works, but if I had problems with a product and couldn't get the merchant to answer, I'd do two things:

1) Press that report button

2) Review the item on Kitely Market

That's what I do on Amazon when a fraudulent item is present there. I report it to the company, then give it a 1-star review and the reasons for doing so. Seems like Kitely has a similar arrangement. These forums are good for finding solutions to the problem (and some have been posted above), but dealing with the item itself is best accomplished via tools on Kitely Market.

And sometimes... one just has to realize that in every field there are bad merchants and even shysters. On SL market I often see freebie and even copybotted items sold, and the merchant getting away with it (at least for a while). There are times when we just have to recognize this reality and for the sake of our own blood pressure, let it go and simply not do business with that merchant again.

But as stated, there's the Report button and the Review section. Those are fairly powerful tools. People read reviews... and those reviews can significantly affect sales.
Last edited by Snoots Dwagon on Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

Constance Peregrine wrote: Well, I somewhat recall, and it may not be a fully clear memory, but there was quite a bit of discussion of this very thing, in the old g+ communities.

the bottom line became ubit was doing his work free, that nobody else wanted to take on the task (or even help)...

Anywho, there were several people who wanted it to be backward compatible and were very upset with ubit's answer. Nothing could be done though.

Yeah, that's the issue. Despite your hazy historical memory (mine is like Swiss cheese), you still managed to fill in a bit of background. Thanks!

(Was the G-grid "Great Canadian" by any chance... or a different one?)

There is a saying in business: "Never let a tech manage a business." Why? Because it takes a certain kind of mind to be a computer coder, and that kind of mind has a reputation for not understanding how non-coders think, function, and work. Techs tend to make decisions based on tech rather than people's desires and needs. The comparatively few techs who understand people and business well... are bought up by the businesses who know the value of such rare individuals.

One such tech was Tranq of Inworldz. That guy could write his own ticket; he understood both people and technology and was a superb coder. Another success is our own Ilan and Oren, who are a management / coder team that actually listens to their populace. Even when they initially question a suggestion they think it over, consider it, and often implement some kind of acceptable solution. Would that all virtual worlds (Opensim or otherwise) were operated by such people.

In the case of Opensim and Firestorm both, no financial system has been established so that coders are hired and paid. Such has been suggested, offered and refused. The "management" in place happens to be the ones willing to volunteer to write the code... and how that code turns out often depends on tech-based opinion rather than societal need. This is what you describe above: an individual willing to put in the time and do the work (kudos for that), other people not willing to do so, and that individual making the decisions regardless of what those unwilling others are requesting.

Thus, three physics engines instead of one good one. Granted, if Ubode had been implemented in Opensim from the very beginning we wouldn't have this problem. But it wasn't, so we have worlds with different and incompatible physics.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Mook Wheeler »

Snoots says:
Another success is our own Ilan and Oren, who are a management / coder team that actually listens to their populace. Even when they initially question a suggestion they think it over, consider it, and often implement some kind of acceptable solution. Would that all virtual worlds (Opensim or otherwise) were operated by such people.
Watching the digital environments on the Internet now, as people get ruder and nastier and more dishonest by the day, the last 5-10 years have horrified me. Even knowing that anonymity encourages unaccountability, does not fully explain why so many people have chosen to become so horrible, often without cause. And 14+ years on Second Life, as someone with Aspergers, have also shown me how prickly and self-centred virtual environments can make (many) people, possibly because they have fewer cues with which to judge interactions. I have learned to say only what is needed, and as carefully as possible, to avoid offending others. In all those years, I have met VERY few people with the courtesy, calm, restraint and respect shown by Ilan in his interactions on the forum and at the meetings, even in the face of unwarranted rudeness. It amazes and humbles me, and I am trying to learn by Ilan's example. Snoots has pointed to the unceasing courtesy and helpfulness shown by the Kitely admin, and I add my support and recognition. It has absolutely not gone unnoticed. I am very glad my group chose Kitely for its OpenSim home. Thank you Ilan, Oren, Snoots, and everyone else who help keep civility afloat in this increasingly troubled world.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Constance Peregrine »

Hi snoots, I just woke up.

I recalled that grid owner's name: Melanie (and I misspell this I think) Theiker.

I'm sure someone will know the grid name now, perhaps even the SIEO (self-identified Evil Overlord).

hasta luego
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History of OpenSim physics...

Post by Dot Matrix »

The grid was Avination. It folded in 2017, as Hypergrid Business reported here: Avination, a significant OpenSim grid, officially shuts down.

There seemed to be a breakdown in communication among OpenSim developers in 2015, resulting in the loss of several key individuals from the team at that point (personal opinion). Search on Hypergrid Business for "OpenSim developer leaves" for more background.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Tess Juel »

Mane Shieldmaiden wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:40 pm
PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING RIPPED OFF BECAUSE THE SELLOR WILL NOT RESPOND OR REFUND FOR BAD MESH.
The seller hasn't logged on to Kitely for more than three months so they never got your message. I know that's not neccessarily an excuse but at least it's an explanation.
Mane Shieldmaiden wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:40 pm
IF THEY ARE GOING TO SELL MESH IT SHOULD BE MADE ADAPTIBLE PRODUCT FOR OPEN SIM OR ANY SIM.
Absolutely! Unfortunately that's not an uncommon problem.
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