ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Discussion and support for the Kitely Market
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Mane Shieldmaiden
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ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Mane Shieldmaiden »

I SPENT $15.00 ON THIS PURCHASE AND HALF THE TEXTURES ARE GONE. I CAN'T GET INTO THE CASTLE THROUGH THE DOORS OR THE ARCHES. THE MESH IS ALL MESSED UP. EVEN IS I DETACH AND MAKE SOME PIECES PHANTOM, I CAN'T USE IT. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO NOW? I MESSAGED THE BUILDER HERE AND PRIVATELY BUT NO RESPONSE.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Mane,

What Kitely Market order number are your referring to and what product in that order?

Did the item intitially rezz properly and then stop or did it not rezz properly from the first try?

What physics engine is your Kitely world (or third-party grid) using, is it ODE, UbODE or BulletSim?
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Dot Matrix
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Dot Matrix »

The product is here: https://www.kitely.com/market/product/5 ... ose-Castle

The issue with the archways etc is probably caused by the current physics engine on the region.

Mane, if you are on Kitely, all you need to do is to change the physics engine of your world from ubODE to ordinary ODE (it's Manage World > Advanced tab). That's what I do when I occasionally hit a similar problem -- it isn't the creator's or Kitely's or any other grid's fault.

As for the missing textures, not sure what happened there. Perhaps a redelivery will help?
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Jinna Mist »

Hi,
I have experienced the same problem (invisible barriers to entry; my textures are fine). I don't think telling us to just use the ODE physics engine is a very satisfactory answer -- not that it's a Kitely issue, but I think it is an issue for the creator.

The opensim doc says...

"The Physics engine ODE (the original one) is maintained for compatibility purposes only. Please avoid creating new content for it. Use it only if your region has a lot of content you can't upgrade now."
http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9.0.0_Release

...so it does not seem fair to regard ubODE-incompatible builds, especially expensive ones, as not the creators fault and problem. We should not be forced onto an old deprecated physics engine by a creator willing to collect our $15 but failing to keep their goods up to date.

Kitely's own description of ODE says "this is an older physics engine. It was the default engine before the creation of ubODE. You should only use this physics engine if you have a legacy world that includes objects that don't work correctly with ubODE."

I did not pay 15 bucks to be forced into a "legacy world".

Jinna
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Dot Matrix »

I am sorry if you think that saying "use the ODE physics engine" is an unsatisfactory answer. It is a practical answer, and one that several of us have chosen to take (e.g. Wellspring: "Wellspring is running on a dedicated server and is lag free. It is running ODE physics; BulletSim and Ubode broke too many things." -- emphasis added.)

In the end, it's a choice for individuals which items they wish to use in their worlds. Fortunately, in Kitely we are able to choose which physics engine will suit those objects, including legacy builds. Without that choice, many of us would lose access to a great deal of what we've invested in our own inventory over many years -- an investment in some cases of several hundred dollars or more.

Perhaps a solution would be to ask merchants to check and state which physics engines are optimal for their builds. This would be more practicable than expecting them to re-upload all their items to satisfy the demands of OpenSim 0.9 -- definitely a non-trivial task. In fact some merchants already do something along those lines.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Jinna,

As I explained in our email correspondence about this order, it's important to test the item on a region (in Kitely, OSgrid, or another grid) that doesn't use the same physics engine you're using in your own region to help determine if the problem is with the object not having been uploaded with a proper collision (physics) mesh or something else. The reason ODE is used with older content is that it is able to handle meshes that are missing a collision mesh by using those meshes themselves as their collision mesh. This results in a lot of avoidable load on the server, so the OpenSim developer who developed UbODE decided to no longer allow non-phantom meshes that are missing proper collision meshes in UbODE.

What we did in Kitely was support all 3 physics engines in order to make it easy for people to select the one that best fits their existing content.

Having said all that, if the mesh doesn't work on systems running modern versions of OpenSim that use the default OpenSim physics engine (UbODE), and the merchant didn't specify that in the Kitely Market product description then you should be able to ask them to either replace that version with a version that does contain a collision mesh or refund you your money.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Tess Juel »

Dot Matrix wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:16 pm
The issue with the archways etc is probably caused by the current physics engine on the region.
I think it goes beyond that. This is a more than five years old Second Life build that has been ported to opensim. So it wasn't made for any of the opensim physics engines at all. It probably wasn't made for SL's physics either since hardly anybody in SL knew how to make technically good mesh houses back then.

(Edit: fixed a typo)
Last edited by Tess Juel on Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Gregg Legendary »

Maybe I am Demented... but I've Always believed a properly created mesh that was properly uploaded would work on any OS based grid no matter what engine....but then I have been wrong before...
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Snoots Dwagon »

NOTICE: Long-ol' Dwagon comment follows. This is personal opinion, based on a tad bit of experience. Nothing here is etched in granite. It's just a comment. Daring adventurers are fore-warned. ;)

As Dot noted above, we conducted some major physics engine tests on Wellspring-- using all three engines.

The unfortunate reality of things is that there are three physics engines on Opensim... and none of them are ideal. Each has problems. Here is why:

1) ODE is a reliable physics engine, but as Ilan pointed out above it can cause some physics issues if not used correctly. However, if used correctly these physics issues are minor. The functional existence of our MegaWorld proves that fact.

2) BULLET was meant to improve vehicle creation and handling... but instead just created new problems. While the physics work well (vehicles, boats, ships, planes)... there were major issues with cut or "tortured" prims. Example: a block that was hollowed to make a doorway would not allow someone to pass through the doorway. Although it looked hollow, Bullet still recognized it as solid. This was widely known from the outset... but never corrected. Instead...

3) UBODE. This could have been the solution, except for one major issue: failure to maintain backward compatibility. Ilan described this above:
Ilan wrote:"The reason ODE is used with older content is that it is able to handle meshes that are missing a collision mesh by using those meshes themselves as their collision mesh. This results in a lot of avoidable load on the server, so the OpenSim developer who developed UbODE decided to no longer allow non-phantom meshes that are missing proper collision meshes in UbODE.

That is the issue: one person decided to no longer allow non-phantom meshes that are missing collision meshes... despite the impact this would have on an already-existing wide base of ODE-compatible creations.

The alternative could have been to encourage proper mesh development while maintaining backward-compatibility with ODE. Instead, Ubode rendered hundreds (thousands?) of already-existing mesh creations non-functional, in which owners could no longer walk through doorways, cave entrances, etc. If the mesh was no-mod, it was now useless under Ubode.

We tried all three physics engines in Wellspring. In the end we decided to go with ODE, since between the three it was the least problematic (for our needs). Sure, in some instances the mesh physics surfaces in ODE can impact server performance. But this is not a constant, lag-inducing situation... especially if those meshes are employed in a proper manner. The "server impact" issue proved to be over-stated. How do we know this? Because Wellspring is absolutely full of such meshes, it's a MegaWorld (64 regions)... and it runs just fine.

Why ODE for Wellspring? Because experiencing some very-minor supposed "lag" issues is far less-impacting to visitors than not being able to walk through doorways.

Are there fixes to these issues? Yes, there are. Builders and world-owners have long learned "work-arounds"... pains that they are. For example if one wants to use an ODE building on Ubode, turn any difficult buildings phantom, then use invisible solid prims to provide walkable platforms and walls. This of course results in a marked increase in prim-use (which is a server-impact issue, especially for lower-prim worlds), it takes far more time and effort to implement, and the phantom/prim trick isn't always feasible. (Ever tried to "phantom/prim" an entire mesh cavern / cave system?)

There are those who say to "re-create the mesh so that it conforms to Ubode". But is that a realistic recommendation? The end-user (who purchased the creation) usually does not have the mesh maps necessary to re-create a build. They likely don't know how to use Blender to perform such a complex re-creation. And the original builder may not wish to mess with totally re-designing a mesh creation, may no longer engage with virtual worlds and may not even answer messages. This is reality.

Many have heard it stated, "Creators should make meshes properly in the first place". Well, Linden Lab should have implemented meshes properly when they first introduced them to virtual worlds. What does that have to do with today's reality? With respect, things are what they are and saying people "should have done" this or that doesn't change the facts of how things exist now. The "should have" sentiment doesn't help a world owner who is trying to make his/her several-hundred mesh builds work with whichever physics engine is currently driving their world. "Should have done" won't make a Bullet vehicle work on an ODE world, won't make an ODE structure work with a Ubode world, won't make Ubode compatible with uncounted existing ODE mesh creations.

This is the reality of virtual worlds as they exist today. Forgive me for being blunt here: this is mainly because people are diverse and have their personal ideas of "how things should be"... and sometimes are in position to force that opinion on all of virtual worlds regardless of what the majority of people think or need. That's why we have three different physics engines, all with their individual problems, instead of one really good one that solves those problems.

I give paws-up to improving physics and world operation. But such improvements should take into strong consideration already-existing needs. We can't expect creators and scripters to change thousands of vehicles to meet some new spec designed by one person. So the physics engine would do well to recognize older meshes and vehicles and enable them to function as intended. That is a lot more workable. That is the Gold Ring, so all of Opensim can switch to one, centralized physics engine, everywhere. No more confusion.

As Gregg states above: a good mesh should work with any physics engine. But that's not the reality of virtual worlds. Conversely, perhaps the physics engine should be able to handle existing creations as well as "good meshes". To handle one and not the other really doesn't meet the needs of the users of Opensim.

We currently have an Opensim that is riddled with three different physics engines that are not compatible with one another. That is the prime issue being discussed in this forum thread... and why that $15 building isn't working. Ideally, one physics engine would pull ODE, Bullet and Ubode together into one compatible package-- and still encourage future mesh-makers and scripters to work smarter.

While we at Wellspring would have loved to use Bullet or Ubode vehicles, after significant testing-- the Board at Wellspring unanimously voted to go with ODE... and as a builder / scripter I have to say we have far less trouble with ODE than the other physics engines. We have to build / script wisely and sanely, but we have working vehicles, working boats and ships, working airships... and most importantly of all we can actually walk through the doorways in our homes. :o

If someone buys an ODE-compatible building and has Ubode land and finds the two aren't compatible, the choice is to try to get your $$$ back from the merchant and promise to delete the creation from your inventory... or (as mentioned prior) turn the building phantom and build invisible physical floors and walls in the building. That may be fairly easy or really difficult, but those are the types of choices we have to make under the current circumstance.

It's my opinion that if a creator knows his product will not work with a certain physics engine, proper notice should be given in the product description, such as "This product is designed to work with ODE and Bullet. Ubode users will need to modify the item for compatibility." Or... the creator might include two versions: one that is ODE compatible and one that is already Ubode-modified so the buyer doesn't have to mess with all that.

Okay, I done now. :mrgreen:
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Re: ROSE CASTLE PURCHASE FOR $15.00

Post by Gregg Legendary »

when ubit made the decision to not make allowances for faulty meshes, I was at first upset, but that was long ago and over the years I have slowly got 0n board his train of thought, I mean its not that hard to make proper mesh or even a close to proper mesh that will work. I think the real issue in not the improper mesh but the creator not responding to the customer's complaint in a timely manor getting the issue escalated to ilan when he has bigger fish to fry...mmm fish... anywho's if an item.. especially a 15 dolla item fails like this it should be removed from the market, i know that sounds harsh but to many 15 dolla is a fortune...
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