Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Support for buying and delivering products from Kitely Market to non-Kitely grids
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Ozwell Wayfarer
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Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:13 pm

Just going to try to relate an experience I had recently with a customer regarding the sale of export goods. Basically, a customer purchased goods on grid X and wanted to use them on grid Y and Z. Problem was that although the items were delivered correctly they could not rez them on the other grids.

Obviously to begin with one assumes that the fault must lie with the grids. So I spent a while messaging grid owners to try to get to the bottom of the problem. I teleported to the grids in question and tried to rez and encountered similar difficulty. Uh oh. Panic time?

So I tried a bunch of things and nothing worked, then suddenly on a whim I decided to drop the items into the "object" subfolder of "my suitcase", instead of just the "my suitcase" main folder. Lo and behold I could now rez.

I advised my customer to do the same and see what would happen. They still could not rez. Dangit!

We then met up on one of the non-home grids and I tried handing the objects to her directly while we were both present. This worked. Ah ha! In my investigations, Timothy Rogers told me that sometimes even when a grid has HG enabled some other settings are overlooked. One of these settings relates to how asset data is tracked across HG. As the customer could rez at home but not over HG, but could rez my items when handed them directly when present on another grid, it seemed we found our problem.

They have now returned to the grid owner to ask them to look into it. We have agreed if the problem persists I will send the items to an avi on a different grid.

I just thought I should put this somewhere for reference to save others the wild goose chase I went on last night trying to figure this out. There are so many variables at play and unfortunately (rightly or wrongly) customers will come to merchants first when things like this happen. Hopefully the above can help someone if they encounter the same issue.

Once the error is confirmed 100% I will update the thread with more info if there is anything relevant.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:17 am

So in the end, I decided to try and send over the items to the customers Kitely avatar for her convenience. But...more problems :(

For those that dont know, if you want to pass C/M/E items in-world, you basically have to make the perms C/M/T. So I duely opened the items in my inventory, changed the perms and sent the items over.

However, when the object is rezzed it retains its original perms. You can NOT set perms via your inventory. The only way to change perms is to rez the item, change it in the build menu and then re-take each object. In some of my 50+ piece kits, thats a lot of work.

In my opinion, that is a really big deal and needs to be fixed. Merchants use that feature all the time in Sl and will expect it to work. I certainly did. So the only way I can please my customer now is if I manually rez and alter perms on about 100 individual meshes and textures. Not cool.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ilan Tochner » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:27 am

Hi Ozwell,

A clarification, items which originated from Kitely Market with the Export permission don't need to be CMT to be CME. They retain their exportability from having been sold with that permission in Kitely Market. Only items that have not originated from Kitely Market need to have both Copy and Transfer for them to be exportable by people who haven't created those items. You can therefore set Export for your kits in Kitely Market and not have to manually make these changes to items unless you intend to give out copies which have not originated from Kitely Market.

The problem with permission changes made to inventory items not sticking consistently is an OpenSim problem that requires significant effort to resolve (which is why the problem still exists despite it being known for quite some time). That is why it is highly recommended that permission changes only be made to rezzed objects. To be clear, this is not a Kitely specific problem.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:58 am

I understand it might be a difficult thing to change, but as I mentioned to you in IM. "I still think its an unacceptable hole in the perms system that you need to fix if you dont want it to potentially turn off future merchants. You KNOW how temperamental some of these people can be. This would be "spit the dummy out and put the toys back in the box" time for many merchants. When we have such a great marketplace with all these features but something as basic as that does not function, what impression do you think that gives?"

As I gave the example, imagine a merchant comes from SL and decides to create two variations. C/M and C/M/T. So they create a C/M folder and take the items into that folder, then duplicate it and edit the perms via the inventory. They then rez the items out and see that the perms shown in the inventory are in fact different to those of the rezzed object.

Faith in the perm system shattered. It doesn't take much. Fear numero uno for most commercial content creators is something exactly like this.

As I have been here for a while but only just discovered this, I actually dont know how many items in my inventory could be effected by this.

As I said, I realize that it might be a difficult fix and a general OS problem, but as the grid spearheading the commercial aspect of OS, it really is your prerogative to fix it. or it should be.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ilan Tochner » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:10 pm

Hi Ozwell,

As I've explained in my reply to that IM, this is not a question of whether or not we want this bug fixed but rather whether we think it is more important to fix it than to work on the other things we're currently working on.

I agree this permission-related problem is annoying and can have a negative effect on some SL merchants evaluating Kitely Market. However, it is not the only, or even the worst, barrier to adoption SL merchants have to overcome before they list their items in our marketplace with Export permission (our focus is on delivery to the metaverse). Therefore, given that this particular problem does have a working workaround, we prefer to focus our efforts on developing features and capabilities that we believe will have a bigger positive effect on Kitely Market's success than fixing this OpenSim problem.

Apropos Kitely Market, when you add items to a product listing those items are shown with the actual permissions those items have. Therefore, you can always look at the product listing to see what permissions the items are being sold with in the marketplace.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ozwell Wayfarer » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:47 am

Well......sorry, but I dont agree with you and I think your proprieties are wrong in this instance. As ever, I am not trying to be combative here. Just stating my point of view as emphatically as possible.

Sales features and featured products being worked on before this is putting the cart several miles before the horse imho. I know thats not the only things you have been working on and I understand and hear your reasons, but I still dont see eye to eye with you. People (merchants especially) expect a robust perm system that works in its entirety. If you cant trust one part of a system, how can you trust any of it? People also seem to like to make sweeping generalizations about Kitely (like the people who STILL think you charge by the minute for land) so imagine if "Perms dont work in Kitely" became a new meme.

It might not matter so much now, but if you dont fix this I predict it WILL come back and bite you at some later point. Imagine if you enticed a really big SL designer, this scenario happens to them and then they spew it all over their blogs and to any other merchant they talk to about it. Thats going to hurt and at that point all the technical or strategical justifications in the world wont help. If more export is what your going for, how can you expect people to trust in Export if basics like this dont work? Falling back on "well its like that all over OS" is just a weak excuse. We are talking about Kitely. We want merchants operating out of Kitely, right? Your pioneering the Export perm but cant get the basics in order? It just doesnt wash. When your talking about peoples property and purchases workarounds are unacceptable.

I dont think we are going to get much further with this conversation as I am as entrenched in my belief this is important as you are in your position . We both agree that its annoying and important, our variance lies only in the perceived level of annoyance and importance. Obviously I dont expect it to change now or any time soon but I really strongly think you should look at it sooner rather than later. I think it should be somewhere pretty high in your priorities list.
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Re: Problems (and resolutions) to Hypergrid Export issues

Post by Ilan Tochner » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:12 pm

The permission system works in Kitely. The only thing you can't rely on (on any OpenSim-based grid and in Second Life as well) is setting permissions on inventory items instead of rezzing them and making the changes on the rezzed items. Please see this Firestorm bug report that directs to several posts on the Second Life site that explain why you should avoid changing permissions on inventory items: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-13932

As you can see, this behavior is broken everywhere. It may work sometimes, as it does in both OpenSim and in Second Life, but the underlying permission system design makes such changes unreliable unless you fully understand the entire process (in which case you'll know what permissions you'll end up with in each possible scenario).

In other words, it's as broken in OpenSim as it is in Second Life. If someone decides to not use Kitely because of that particular problem then they are just ignorant of how problematic this is in Second Life as well.

If it were up to us we would have designed the entire permission system differently but, as OpenSim core doesn't want to break compatibility with Second Life, this is a moot point.
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