We need alternatives to Paypal

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Gusher Castaignede
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Gusher Castaignede »

Seriously,
another option aside from paypal needs be added...
Paypal has become politicized to cancel anyone
they disagree with. Reality is they suppose to
be neutral, but that's not the case. Some ideas
that have in mind is offer Amazon egift cards
as payment or similiar. Hopefully stripe will
be available soon over there... also, checkout
https://wise.com/us/... OR OR update
your virtual currency to be able to withdraw
from it to members choice including egift cards..
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Ilan Tochner
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Serendipity and Gusher,

Accepting crypto or turning Kitely Credits into a convertible currency both involve legal and filing costs (both financial and bureaucratic) that far outweigh any income that we can gain from doing so. We've already had to deal with local authorities because they thought Kitely Credits were a convertible currency. We were only able to retain our ability to do business because we repeatedly assured the relevant parties that Kitely Credits are not a convertible currency and that none of our income is derived from dealing with crypto currencies, directly or indirectly. In other words, our revenue is not nearly high enough for us to be able to afford jumping through all the legal and bureaucratic hoops that are required to do business with a convertible virtual currency (crypto or otherwise).

As stated previously in this thread, as an Israeli company our international billing options are a lot more limited than those of US-based companies. Even though we've had our own frustrating dealings with PayPal in the past, they still remain our best option after taking everything into consideration, including business-operation procedures which frankly I'm envious of those of you who don't have to deal with them. Stripe may become an option for us in the future but despite their opening local offices already, Israeli regulatory hurdles are delaying their availability.

As such, at this time, our only ability to bill credit cards (international or otherwise) is using PayPal. My suggestion, for those of you who do not wish to create a PayPal subscription for our service is to use the option to buy Kitely Credits using a non-repeating credit card transaction done via our PayPal integration. This should allow you to pay using your credit card via the PayPal site without creating a PayPal account (it's optional at the end of the payment process if you're not already signed into PayPal).
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Serendipity Seraph
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Serendipity Seraph »

Thanks, Ilan. Yeah I figured there might be a mess of legal snafus especially as a regular business that has to track things like VAT and other taxes on outgoing money to users. However it seems to me there would not be so much problem allowing *buying* Kitely Credits via crypto or credit cards. For at least payments to Kitely this could free us from PayPal. For outgoing payments to users from Kitely perhaps an option to hook in a user's other financial money receipt details could work? Say for instance Stripe, etc? Ah, being international from Israel might make that troublesome. Especially with some of the heavy US (and I imagine EU) relevant regulations.

You are right that we can use any CC through PayPal if we hold our nose as necessary while doing so.

Thanks again for the detailed answer.
Ilan Tochner wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:59 pm
Hi Serendipity and Gusher,

Accepting crypto or turning Kitely Credits into a convertible currency both involve legal and filing costs (both financial and bureaucratic) that far outweigh any income that we can gain from doing so. We've already had to deal with local authorities because they thought Kitely Credits were a convertible currency. We were only able to retain our ability to do business because we repeatedly assured the relevant parties that Kitely Credits are not a convertible currency and that none of our income is derived from dealing with crypto currencies, directly or indirectly. In other words, our revenue is not nearly high enough for us to be able to afford jumping through all the legal and bureaucratic hoops that are required to do business with a convertible virtual currency (crypto or otherwise).

As stated previously in this thread, as an Israeli company our international billing options are a lot more limited than those of US-based companies. Even though we've had our own frustrating dealings with PayPal in the past, they still remain our best option after taking everything into consideration, including business-operation procedures which frankly I'm envious of those of you who don't have to deal with them. Stripe may become an option for us in the future but despite their opening local offices already, Israeli regulatory hurdles are delaying their availability.

As such, at this time, our only ability to bill credit cards (international or otherwise) is using PayPal. My suggestion, for those of you who do not wish to create a PayPal subscription for our service is to use the option to buy Kitely Credits using a non-repeating credit card transaction done via our PayPal integration. This should allow you to pay using your credit card via the PayPal site without creating a PayPal account (it's optional at the end of the payment process if you're not already signed into PayPal).
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Serendipity Seraph wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:12 pm
However it seems to me there would not be so much problem allowing *buying* Kitely Credits via crypto or credit cards. For at least payments to Kitely this could free us from PayPal.
Anti money laundering regulation requirements for Israeli banks, to which we need to be able to transfer our own revenue, prevent them from accepting revenue derived from crypto which in turn makes it extremely hard for us to be able to accept it. We almost had our own bank refuse our money transfer from our own PayPal account until we assured multiple levels in that organization that none of that revenue was related to any activity in crypto currency. Accepting crypto payments for buying KC would result in us losing our ability to get money back into our bank account, and that is problematic to say the least.
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Moonrise Azalee
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Moonrise Azalee »

The documents seem to read differently for different places, because when I read it it says:
If you are a seller and receive funds for transactions that violate the Acceptable Use Policy and said violation is associated with fraud or the sale of goods that are counterfeit or otherwise infringe on intellectual property rights, then in addition to being subject to the above actions you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal's damages caused by said violation. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500 USD (or equivalent) per violation is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal's actual damages - including, but not limited to internal administrative costs incurred by PayPal to monitor and track violations, damage to PayPal’s brand and reputation, and penalties imposed upon PayPal by its business partners resulting from said violation associated with fraud or the sale of goods that are counterfeit or otherwise infringe on intellectual property rights - considering all currently existing circumstances, including the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated because, due to the nature of the violation, actual damages would be impractical or extremely difficult to calculate. PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account you control.

( https://www.paypal.com/al/webapps/mpp/u ... restricted )
Like it or not, Paypal is a business and it wants to protect itself from people using its service for things that could get PayPal itself into huge hot water. And here it seems to apply the fine discussed, only to situations where the violation against AUP also includes fraud/counterfeit/intellectual property rights.
Like using it for your business that sells rip off CD/DVD/ , Microsoft software, etc.
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Serendipity Seraph »

What are you talking about? Show many any law on the books by which PayPal can be held liable if someone they have an account with posts something that some don't like on some social media platform. There is no crime in such posts themselves so there is nothing to be held legally against PayPal for such. But PayPal has closed accounts for such things.
Moonrise Azalee wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:37 pm
The documents seem to read differently for different places, because when I read it it says:
If you are a seller and receive funds for transactions that violate the Acceptable Use Policy and said violation is associated with fraud or the sale of goods that are counterfeit or otherwise infringe on intellectual property rights, then in addition to being subject to the above actions you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal's damages caused by said violation. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500 USD (or equivalent) per violation is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal's actual damages - including, but not limited to internal administrative costs incurred by PayPal to monitor and track violations, damage to PayPal’s brand and reputation, and penalties imposed upon PayPal by its business partners resulting from said violation associated with fraud or the sale of goods that are counterfeit or otherwise infringe on intellectual property rights - considering all currently existing circumstances, including the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated because, due to the nature of the violation, actual damages would be impractical or extremely difficult to calculate. PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account you control.

( https://www.paypal.com/al/webapps/mpp/u ... restricted )
Like it or not, Paypal is a business and it wants to protect itself from people using its service for things that could get PayPal itself into huge hot water. And here it seems to apply the fine discussed, only to situations where the violation against AUP also includes fraud/counterfeit/intellectual property rights.
Like using it for your business that sells rip off CD/DVD/ , Microsoft software, etc.
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Moonrise Azalee
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Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Moonrise Azalee »

Serendipity Seraph wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:10 pm
What are you talking about? Show many any law on the books by which PayPal can be held liable if someone they have an account with posts something that some don't like on some social media platform. There is no crime in such posts themselves so there is nothing to be held legally against PayPal for such. But PayPal has closed accounts for such things.
I am responding to the wording itself of the authorized user consent terms, not sure what you are referring to.
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