We need alternatives to Paypal

Ask questions about your Kitely account or payment options
User avatar
Gusher Castaignede
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:03 pm
Has thanked: 285 times
Been thanked: 250 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Gusher Castaignede »

Stripe has launched its operations in Israel and has begun recruiting local talent.Jan 3, 2022
Ilan Tochner wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:40 pm
Hi Gusher,

As stated above, as an Israeli company we have limited ability to accept payment other than using PayPal. That may change when Stripe finally adds support for Israel, but until that happens there are no viable options that we can support that would justify the R&D and operational costs of supporting them.
Image
"lnteractivity, Variety, Ease of Use"
Visit my store at Country Manor
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 6504
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 4943 times
Been thanked: 4455 times
Contact:

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Gusher,

They started hiring but they haven't yet started providing their service to Israeli companies or given a timeline for when they will do so. I also don't know how the current downturn in the economy and layoffs in many high tech companies is going to effect their unpublished schedule.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post (total 2):
Gusher CastaignedeAda Radius
User avatar
Mike Lorrey
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Ilan Tochner wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:16 pm
Hi Zyzzyx,

I'll reiterate that there is a huge difference between a company adding some clause to a Standard Form agreement and (a) it being legal, and (b) that company actually trying to enforce that clause. As stated previously, I highly doubt they will ever try to enforce that clause as it would result in much bigger damage to their company than any benefit such a "fine" could ever give them.
The problem is, most people they will target with it won't have the funds to pay for a lawsuit, and won't even be able to borrow from banks with a $2.500 paypal unpaid bill sitting on their credit report. Unless they target someone like Donald Trump or Steven Crowder, this won't get challenged in court. Given Blackrocks equity stake and their pushing ESG policies on all financial institutions they invest in to cancel and blacklist people who disagree with their leftist politics, your skepticism is not warranted. We are seeing banks cancelling thousands of accounts of not just businesses engaged in legal commerce that conflicts with ESG politics, but doing the same to customers as well as targeting customers for red flag law harassment.
User avatar
Mike Lorrey
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Graham Mills wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:42 pm
Updated to note that UK users are subject to the $2500 (or equivalent) fine, it's just omitted from the comparable section but included as follows:

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/u ... activities
Graham Mills wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:17 pm
With the usual proviso that I am not a lawyer, it seems to me that the penalty only applies if you use the PayPal service in support of such actions. Not a point I'd personally care to argue in court, of course.

https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/acceptableuse-full

Incidentally, the sanction doesn't seem to apply to the UK unless covered elsewhere.

https://www.paypal.com/uk/legalhub/acceptableuse-full

Graham, "in support of" is such a broad term. If I sold a t-shirt on kitely marketplace with an American flag on it with a "back the blue' stripe, or a "all lives matter" slogan, then that is the "in support of" that would cause paypal to nuke not just my paypal account, but also kitelys. Even if you disagree with the content of such t-shirt messaging, you cannot make a cogent argument that they are in any way hateful, unless you are a BLM extremist marxist pushing a CRT agenda (then again, I said 'cogent'.... ). This is not a minor thing, and you guys downplaying it is going to wind up leaving a lot of customers insecure about staying with kitely.
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 6504
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 4943 times
Been thanked: 4455 times
Contact:

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Mike,

Please don't fearmonger, as stated previously there is a huge difference between a company adding some controversial provision to their Standard Form contract and them actually trying to enforce that provision. As of now, I'm unaware of any incident where PayPal actually tried to take money out of people's accounts for anything other than a transaction reversal that was issued due to a dispute that was filed for that specific transaction.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post:
Chris Namaste
Graham Mills
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:26 pm
Has thanked: 1134 times
Been thanked: 1141 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Graham Mills »

When I said "in support of" I meant simply in a functional commercial sense. I have no interest in discussing politics in this forum and if you continue to do so directly or indirectly I shall leave it forthwith.
User avatar
Mike Lorrey
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 270 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Also, you are missing another payment opportunity: enable kitely users to buy KC with Gloebits, so they dont have to cash gloebits out to paypal and then back to kitely.
User avatar
Ilan Tochner
Posts: 6504
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 am
Has thanked: 4943 times
Been thanked: 4455 times
Contact:

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Hi Mike,

There is very little business sense in dealing with the legal and operational complications of accepting gleobits on Kitely.

If we were willing to take on those costs and liabilities we would have made Kitely Credits usable on the Hypergrid instead of doing so to support a different entity's virtual currency.
These users thanked the author Ilan Tochner for the post:
Chris Namaste
User avatar
Serendipity Seraph
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 am
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Serendipity Seraph »

Ilan Tochner wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:01 pm
Whatever your feelings are about what PayPal tried to do with their TOS change they've quickly reacted to the backlash and AFAIk have promptly backtracked on that TOS change. If they try to get such language included in their TOS again then you can react to it at that time. Even then I'd personally wait to see if they try to actually enforce that clause against anyone.

I find it extremely unlikely that any CEO would even seriously consider activating such a clause against one of their customers considering the irreparable harm that would do to their business, even before considering any legal ramifications this will have for them down the line. I don't know of any company that has tried to charge anyone's third-party bank or credit card account for a TOS violation without a court ruling. The worst I've seen financial institutions try to do is to freeze the money you hold with them while suspending your account pending legal proceedings.

Again, I am not a lawyer but our business uses PayPal exclusively, it has a higher exposure than you do given that we host user-generated content, and I am apparently less concerned about this TOS change (that was undone) than you are. Not because it is something I agree that PayPal should be able to do but rather because I very much doubt that they would ever attempt to try to enforce that clause against anyone who isn't universally hated by their entire user base. Anything less than that and they'd suffer financial damages from bad PR, lost business and governmental scrutiny far exceeding whatever they could hope to gain from charging the people they "fine". It would be a very bad business decision for them even if they were on solid legal ground to do so and I don't think any such clause in a modified Standard Form contract would be found legal by any half-competent court.
This is not very satisfying at all. Paypal has been for some time acting in more and more tyrannical and arbitrary ways. What you or I think is not good business on their part is irrelevant to the bad actions that have taken and continue to take. Paypal has been aggressively close the accounts of parties it has grievances with for their postings elsewhere on the internet for the last year or two. Some content providers on YouTube that are perfectly reasonable have had their paypal funds frozen for months at a time or longer with no real explanation forthcoming and no recourse. Some of your customers are fed up with PayPal and do not wish to deal with them in any way. So what are you going to do about it to keep said customers happy? If the answer is "Nothing" then please say so clearly. Neither I nor you can likely budge Paypal but perhaps we can find some alternatives within Kitely?
These users thanked the author Serendipity Seraph for the post (total 2):
Gusher CastaignedeMike Lorrey
User avatar
Serendipity Seraph
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:57 am
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: We need alternatives to Paypal

Post by Serendipity Seraph »

Mike Lorrey wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:10 pm
Also, you are missing another payment opportunity: enable kitely users to buy KC with Gloebits, so they dont have to cash gloebits out to paypal and then back to kitely.
I would happily buy Kitely with CC or Monero or most any mainstream cryptocurrency and happily be paid in crypto as an option. Would that be so hard to set up?
These users thanked the author Serendipity Seraph for the post:
Mike Lorrey
Post Reply