=Bullies Attacking Kitely and Opensim=

[Constance Peregrine]

The problem is this happens all too often...and I think you ppl should leave the rest of us alone, stop thinking so samishly, the world does not revolve around your grid, and it never will.

I would love to leave Kitely to Kitely users (of which I used to be one), but this thread is all about InWorldz and attacks the moral reputation of that grid and therefore I don't see a damned thing wrong with stepping in correct the misinformation, or to let Ilan know that I didn't mean anything disparaging towards Kitely if there was anything I said that indirectly implied that.

From what I have observed, often what you call misinformation is actually opinions, some of which is often based on facts.

You guys don't need to send your shills out to every darn mention of inwz that has any perceived thought of it being somehow negative...do you? and why?

This was actually an old thread Jane revived, so what? Are you their attorney as well as their paid programmer now?

Can we all post in the inwz forums, like you 2 are doing here? if so, let's go....but, seriously, to pounce on a decnet grids forums with all this nonsense, THAT should bother a normal person, as well as other comments...but, no, you would rather try to make her words nonsense and slander, whatever.

Why do you all always feel the need to be this way? Go do positive things for your own residents, god knows your mantis is full of issues needing your time your paid for....go do some positive marketing for inwz, you all remind me of politicians...lol..and your grid needs some help with marketing...

[Content Creater]

The problem is this happens all too often...and I think you ppl should leave the rest of us alone, stop thinking so samishly, the world does not revolve around your grid, and it never will.

I would love to leave Kitely to Kitely users (of which I used to be one), but this thread is all about InWorldz and attacks the moral reputation of that grid and therefore I don't see a damned thing wrong with stepping in correct the misinformation, or to let Ilan know that I didn't mean anything disparaging towards Kitely if there was anything I said that indirectly implied that.

OP here I think jim you sould just go back to your normal attacks on linden labs or something, your not opensim just point out all the code you helped other grids with can you ? your a closed grid hoping to be the next secondlife good luck with that. inworldz has never helped opensim grow so you have a voice here but it means very little in my view.

Where are the links with inworldz helping with code for opensim huh , yes sir I don't think so.

[Isis Starlight]

Hi Jim,

We have a weekly Kitely Mentors Group meeting staring so I'll write a short reply now and answer the rest of your questions later.

I recall reading disparaging remarks in an Hypergrid Business comment thread, made by someone who works for Inworldz (you?), about how OpenSim-based grid owners don't think it's important to protect content creators rights. I replied to that comment stating that those comments are not true about Kitely and gave examples of how we protect our users' intellectual property (I'm sorry but I don't recall the article this thread was in).

In general, we refrain from censuring people's comments when they express negative opinions about Kitely or other grids. We only do so if they make repeated and clearly libelous (non-opinion) accusations. In all the years since we started our beta we only censured one person's comments and that was after months of having him attack Kitely in our own forums, on Twitter, on Facebook, and on other people's blogs. We usually try to direct people to focus on the positive.

[Jim Tarber]

Mine and Content, you both just seem to be trying to divert attention to other topics unrelated to Jane's attack on InWorldz. I've corrected her misinformation, and yes Mine, that is her opinion, but it is very uninformed and misleading (and I feel slanderous), and if she wants to condemn InWorldz for reverse engineering, she really needs to condemn all of OpenSim because that is the very basis for its existence.

I've clarified that now, and I think most people will understand why I popped in here. Rather than responding further to your attacks on InWorldz in a third-party forum, I want to leave this forum for Kitely-related discussions by Kitely users, if I can. I hope you enjoy your virtual activities, where ever you may have them.

Ilan, thanks for the reply. I hope it is well understood that I fully support the idea that you and Kitely are very professionally run and work very hard to protect the IP rights of content creators. I do sometimes comment that content protection is less of an issue for many OpenSim grids but what I mean by that is that there are many more full-rights, creative-commons and otherwise license-free or loose items in those worlds, especially the open worlds. And as a (currently) closed grid like InWorldz, that doesn't really apply much to Kitely, and I understand that is done to protect the content creators. I also know you have DMCA reporting process similar to InWorldz, and that you want to provide full support for commercial opportunities here. The new Kitely Marketplace clearly shows that, and supporting and requiring the new export permission to allow products to be used in other grids is a great example of opening to other grids while maintaining protection. Again, if I said anything to indirectly imply otherwise, it was not intended.

[Tristan Lawksley]

...IMVU clone.

I don't want to derail the thread too far, but I'm curious about this part of your statement. Why would you bother including IMVU in any manner? Being someone who was neck deep in IMVU 6+ years ago (And by neck deep I mean being the person who wrote the VGCP.) I'm struggling to understand the comparison. IMVU at its best is a poor substitute, let alone a clone, for Second Life, Kitely, or any other grid. Has IMVU advanced to the point where they can move room to room without loading screens? Walking across the boundaries? Supporting, openly, anything beyond Ken and Barbie (if Ken and Barbie had non-excited genitals that is) adult content? Contain support for market rooms?

Mr. Tochner is on top of customer relations, I do agree there. He has to be to put a good face on a less-than-useful service. Fortunately, with such a low number of active users on Kitely, he can do this with ease.

I can't speak for Ilan, but I would presume that as the customer base increases he'll begin looking into staffing options. I wouldn't think that it's his intentions to support a 5K-10K (I realize that's being generous.) population long-term on a two man operation. Or perhaps he is. Until he makes an announcement it's pure speculation - as is the statement that he must put on a good face. I haven't been here long, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kitely's population wouldn't take issues with broad shoulders. What you're implying, if only to prove a point, is that Ilan isn't transparent about the issues Kitely faces. Please do correct me if I'm misunderstanding your statement.

[Jeremiah Leitner]

...IMVU clone.

I don't want to derail the thread too far, but I'm curious about this part of your statement. Why would you bother including IMVU in any manner? Being someone who was neck deep in IMVU 6+ years ago (And by neck deep I mean being the person who wrote the VGCP.) I'm struggling to understand the comparison. IMVU at its best is a poor substitute, let alone a clone, for Second Life, Kitely, or any other grid. Has IMVU advanced to the point where they can move room to room without loading screens? Walking across the boundaries? Supporting, openly, anything beyond Ken and Barbie (if Ken and Barbie had non-excited genitals that is) adult content? Contain support for market rooms?

Mr. Tochner is on top of customer relations, I do agree there. He has to be to put a good face on a less-than-useful service. Fortunately, with such a low number of active users on Kitely, he can do this with ease.

I can't speak for Ilan, but I would presume that as the customer base increases he'll begin looking into staffing options. I wouldn't think that it's his intentions to support a 5K-10K (I realize that's being generous.) population long-term on a two man operation. Or perhaps he is. Until he makes an announcement it's pure speculation - as is the statement that he must put on a good face. I haven't been here long, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kitely's population wouldn't take issues with broad shoulders. What you're implying, if only to prove a point, is that Ilan isn't transparent about the issues Kitely faces. Please do correct me if I'm misunderstanding your statement.

I was being intentionally facetious to illustrate how ridiculous the OP, Jane, and mine were behaving.

[Isis Starlight]

Mine and Content, you both just seem to be trying to divert attention to other topics unrelated to Jane's attack on InWorldz. I've corrected her misinformation, and yes Mine, that is her opinion, but it is very uninformed and misleading (and I feel slanderous), and if she wants to condemn InWorldz for reverse engineering, she really needs to condemn all of OpenSim because that is the very basis for its existence.

I've clarified that now, and I think most people will understand why I popped in here. Rather than responding further to your attacks on InWorldz in a third-party forum, I want to leave this forum for Kitely-related discussions by Kitely users, if I can. I hope you enjoy your virtual activities, where ever you may have them.

Ilan, thanks for the reply. I hope it is well understood that I fully support the idea that you and Kitely are very professionally run and work very hard to protect the IP rights of content creators. I do sometimes comment that content protection is less of an issue for many OpenSim grids but what I mean by that is that there are many more full-rights, creative-commons and otherwise license-free or loose items in those worlds, especially the open worlds. And as a (currently) closed grid like InWorldz, that doesn't really apply much to Kitely, and I understand that is done to protect the content creators. I also know you have DMCA reporting process similar to InWorldz, and that you want to provide full support for commercial opportunities here. The new Kitely Marketplace clearly shows that, and supporting and requiring the new export permission to allow products to be used in other grids is a great example of opening to other grids while maintaining protection. Again, if I said anything to indirectly imply otherwise, it was not intended.

Good lord jimmy click your boots in say 'there is no place like home' coming in from IWZ as a fashion designer when I filed several DMCA as my work had been copybotting in IWZ it was never for sale full perms what did IWZ do
No.1 did not take down
No.2 crazy 2 weeks investigation
No.3 took matter as personal and wanted me prove with PSD Files dated as part of there investigation
No.4 after 4 DMCA I gave up as this person is still there selling my stuff was it because they were close friends to founders there I wonder who owns a lot of land
No.5 I am here now and inworldz employees are trolling how about protecting your residents rights if there are any!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! geez

Sorry to bring this up everyone that's just silly what they do maybe there but not in our home .

[Constance Peregrine]

unfortunately, it is inevitable they will come here to stir up problems, it is not the first time I have seen this and it won't be the last....it is some sickness there that they must permeate the metaverse with nonsense.

Their own forums are VERY restrictive, so I guess some of them need to vent, someplace...better than some alternatives I suppose.

i find it both annoying, and, oddly, amusing....

[Content Creater]

Ilan, thanks for the reply. I hope it is well understood that I fully support the idea that you and Kitely are very professionally run and work very hard to protect the IP rights of content creators. I do sometimes comment that content protection is less of an issue for many OpenSim grids but what I mean by that is that there are many more full-rights, creative-commons and otherwise license-free or loose items in those worlds, especially the open worlds. And as a (currently) closed grid like InWorldz, that doesn't really apply much to Kitely, and I understand that is done to protect the content creators. I also know you have DMCA reporting process similar to InWorldz, and that you want to provide full support for commercial opportunities here. The new Kitely Marketplace clearly shows that, and supporting and requiring the new export permission to allow products to be used in other grids is a great example of opening to other grids while maintaining protection. Again, if I said anything to indirectly imply otherwise, it was not intended.

Hi Jim,

The weekly Kitely Mentors Group meeting has adjured so, as promised, I'll now answer your questions.

I understand your intentions and don't hold your comments against you but I think some of the people reading them may read a different, more aggressive, interpretation of your statements than the one you intended. That said, I didn't have any quarrel with you before and I certainly don't have one with you now.

I agree that researching the unencrypted protocols a company uses with the software it released as open source (as is the case with Linden Lab's Second Life viewer) is a good example of legitimate reverse engineering and shouldn't be classified as corporate espionage. Especially when done on the open-source viewer side so no "unauthorized decryption" of the network traffic itself takes place - which can be an issue in some countries. However, this may or may not be allowed by Second Lab's terms of service - I haven't checked as we've never had any reason to try to research network traffic between viewers and Second Life's servers. In any case, assuming it's allowed by SL's TOS, I don't think you should be labeled "spies" for doing so.

As you correctly stated, we aren't willing to open Kitely to hypergrid access before we address the various content protection issues that this can create. That said, we want to enable hypergrid access on Kitely and we took a big step in that direction today when we rolled out Export permission enforcement for OAR exports. The infrastructure work we did to support that functionality brings us a lot closer to enabling hypergrid connectivity on Kitely while continuing to provide content creators with a secure virtual world in which to sell their digital goods.

I think there are ways that Kitely and Inworldz can work together to improve the virtual world experience we provide our respective users. I'd hate to see doors to future cooperation close shut due to avoidable conflicts.

[Jim Tarber]

I agree that researching the unencrypted protocols a company uses with the software it released as open source (as is the case with Linden Lab's Second Life viewer) is a good example of legitimate reverse engineering and shouldn't be classified as corporate espionage. Especially when done on the open-source viewer side so no "unauthorized decryption" of the network traffic itself takes place - which can be an issue in some countries. However, this may or may not be allowed by Second Lab's terms of service - I haven't checked as we've never had any reason to try to research network traffic between viewers and Second Life's servers. In any case, assuming it's allowed by SL's TOS, I don't think you should be labeled "spies" for doing so.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about logging in to SL and observing the behavior, e.g. what happens if you sit on a child prim and then rotate the root prim in object vs. Edit Linked Part modes. Things like that. Occasionally I also check the network packets using the viewer's "Message Log" feature. I've never used a network packet monitor (other than the viewer Message Log feature) when connecting to SL, even though I don't have a problem with that, and know that's probably how most of the OMV libraries (that we all rely on) was created.

I think there are ways that Kitely and Inworldz can work together to improve the virtual world experience we provide our respective users. I'd hate to see doors to future cooperation close shut due to avoidable conflicts.

Absolutely. I believe the two grids have helped each other in the past and worked together at least a bit on some common issues, and I've personally recommended Kitely many times for those users who have somewhat different needs than InWorldz provides (e.g. where lighter use or on-demand regions make more sense). I expect that as both grow even more, there will be more things that both grids can cooperate on.