Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
- Ozwell Wayfarer
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Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Something I have been thinking, talking and reading about recently are ideas surrounding how opensim and opensim based technologies can move beyond its Second Life origins.
As we all know, we have already achieved this in some areas with the new export perms,pixelviewer and hypergrid, but for a long time Opensim was playing catch-up with technology. These days, there is less and less noticeable difference. But for grids to ever appeal to more than the converted SL crowd and its already converted core users, its going to have to offer MORE than SL presently offers. Any commercial grid aiming for long-long-term success NEEDS to consider these issues sooner rather than later.
Now, before I start, I dont want people to think this is a thread where I am suggesting/demanding these things are implemented soon, or suggesting that it is in some way priority to do these things or anything like that. Some of these ideas may not even be possible. This is just a thread for people to throw out ideas, discuss what they would like to see. A flight of fantasy, as it where.
1. Avatar 2.0 - A concept that has sent chills down the spines of content creators grid-wide in SL for years is the idea of updating the default avatar to be less, well.....horrific. I think this is the single biggest improvement any grid could go for, and does not have to be painful for creators, so long as the existing users can switch back and forth between their old avi and the new type. Imagine if a grid provided a halfway decent avi with a nice range of customization options out of the box. The default avis most places use these days were not up to task when they were implemented. Nowadays, they are downright off-putting.
2. Better default content - Ami mentioned this in the thread directly below . The old linden trees and other freebie stuff should be chucked out and new stuff put in its place. Doesn't have to be mind-blowingly amazing stuff, but just up to a decent standard for today's expectations of a virtual world.
3. Voxel Terrain - This would be a tricky one, but a very cool. Imagine being able to raise a mountain, then hollow it out. With voxel based terrain, you would be able to have much more control over your island. I am sure someone is going to come along and tell me why it cant be done and bust my bubble lol If we cant do that, then at least look at the 4-terrain texture limitation.
4. More Materials - Call me premature, with the full material module pending proper implementation any day now, but I was somewhat disappointed to see LL only implement Specular and Bump. Seeing things like Glow, Displacement, Occlusion would be great and turn some heads for sure.
Well, thats about all I can think of for now. I am not quite sure where I expect this thread to go, but I am sure there is an interesting conversation to be had here somewhere .
As we all know, we have already achieved this in some areas with the new export perms,pixelviewer and hypergrid, but for a long time Opensim was playing catch-up with technology. These days, there is less and less noticeable difference. But for grids to ever appeal to more than the converted SL crowd and its already converted core users, its going to have to offer MORE than SL presently offers. Any commercial grid aiming for long-long-term success NEEDS to consider these issues sooner rather than later.
Now, before I start, I dont want people to think this is a thread where I am suggesting/demanding these things are implemented soon, or suggesting that it is in some way priority to do these things or anything like that. Some of these ideas may not even be possible. This is just a thread for people to throw out ideas, discuss what they would like to see. A flight of fantasy, as it where.
1. Avatar 2.0 - A concept that has sent chills down the spines of content creators grid-wide in SL for years is the idea of updating the default avatar to be less, well.....horrific. I think this is the single biggest improvement any grid could go for, and does not have to be painful for creators, so long as the existing users can switch back and forth between their old avi and the new type. Imagine if a grid provided a halfway decent avi with a nice range of customization options out of the box. The default avis most places use these days were not up to task when they were implemented. Nowadays, they are downright off-putting.
2. Better default content - Ami mentioned this in the thread directly below . The old linden trees and other freebie stuff should be chucked out and new stuff put in its place. Doesn't have to be mind-blowingly amazing stuff, but just up to a decent standard for today's expectations of a virtual world.
3. Voxel Terrain - This would be a tricky one, but a very cool. Imagine being able to raise a mountain, then hollow it out. With voxel based terrain, you would be able to have much more control over your island. I am sure someone is going to come along and tell me why it cant be done and bust my bubble lol If we cant do that, then at least look at the 4-terrain texture limitation.
4. More Materials - Call me premature, with the full material module pending proper implementation any day now, but I was somewhat disappointed to see LL only implement Specular and Bump. Seeing things like Glow, Displacement, Occlusion would be great and turn some heads for sure.
Well, thats about all I can think of for now. I am not quite sure where I expect this thread to go, but I am sure there is an interesting conversation to be had here somewhere .
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- Constance Peregrine
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
I would love to see the old default things replaced also...it makes the whole experience for newbies kinda cartoonish, to my thinking.
I would really love to be able to tunnel into terrains...that would be awesome.
As to the 4 terrain options, those do give a very large variety of possibilities though.
I would really love to be able to tunnel into terrains...that would be awesome.
As to the 4 terrain options, those do give a very large variety of possibilities though.
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Materials that can be added to terrain textures in regions tops my list in regards to my terraforming wish list
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- Ozwell Wayfarer
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Splashable region water would be nice
Some type of visible weather like a dewy morning or frost that could be added beyond windlight like ground level fog adjusted from a control panel
Some type of visible weather like a dewy morning or frost that could be added beyond windlight like ground level fog adjusted from a control panel
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Hey Ozwell,
I like this thread;-) What I miss is this, I would love to be able to paint on the terrain. So I can make good merges between rock and grass and soil where I like them and not have to rely on the very simple terrain hights model. This would make roads and paths a piece of pie!
Another valuable addition or mod would be multiple water levels. Imagine a mountain with a water basin or pond that is 20 meter above sea level. What would be needed is a water map, raise and lower the water in selected area.
Keep it comming;-)
Ami
I like this thread;-) What I miss is this, I would love to be able to paint on the terrain. So I can make good merges between rock and grass and soil where I like them and not have to rely on the very simple terrain hights model. This would make roads and paths a piece of pie!
Another valuable addition or mod would be multiple water levels. Imagine a mountain with a water basin or pond that is 20 meter above sea level. What would be needed is a water map, raise and lower the water in selected area.
Keep it comming;-)
Ami
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- Dundridge Dreadlow
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Shaders on everything
Or just plain multi-texturing as an additional material option
(half the code is already there..)
Or just plain multi-texturing as an additional material option
(half the code is already there..)
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
I think we should seek improvements in the basics like the better trees I mentioned and better terraforming/painting. A lot of other improvements don't actually have to be there because our brain can easily fill in the gabs when we are submerged in a virtual environment.
Ami
Ami
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- Ozwell Wayfarer
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
I really like Dundridges texture layering idea. That would open up a whole range of new possibilities. I also think materials on terrain and terrain painting would be amazing!Amiryu Hosoi wrote:I think we should seek improvements in the basics like the better trees I mentioned and better terraforming/painting. A lot of other improvements don't actually have to be there because our brain can easily fill in the gabs when we are submerged in a virtual environment.
Ami
On the landscaping stuff, though I agree, I would say the avatar is the more important goal. Not everyone bothers with land, but everyone has an avi, and everyone seeks to identify with their avi in some way. It is also the single biggest way to draw people to a grid.
……but I am a landscaping merchant, so I guess I would say that .
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
The best way to get "beyond the Second Life paradigm" is to simply stop considering SL requirements when working on OpenSim or the viewers.
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- Dundridge Dreadlow
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Re: Going beyond the Second Life paradigm
Another thing to be aware of is the amount of work it would take to do...
an avatar overhaul would be a HUGE project both server, client & modelling side. There are very few people who can do this type of coding out there, it is an "advanced" topic... We do have rigged mesh to take up the slack. Don't hold your breath.
Anything with static objects or materials is viable, the code is very similar to what already exists so.. just fiddling and tweaking. Multitexturing should be very similar to the other material modes and only need minor changes to server/client. Once you have two sets of UVs, the rest is supposed to be easy No shader required if you send it fixed function
Trees - it's not that hard to import mesh trees, adding additional items to the palette might be tricky, but could be done. I'm not sure if they are rezzed client or server side off hand. Linking them to the wind... hmm...
Tunnel into terrains - awesome idea, however less trivial than it should be Again, changes both server and client side with additional data for the landscape and the way it is edited and rendered, plus changes to the height detection code, breaking physics objects that rely on it, and other issues.. However - It is relatively trivial to replace a terrain with mesh or other components, but it can't look as nice without multitexturing/shaders.
shaders - we already have shaders in for water, landscapes and sky. If those were made available for objects along with multitexturing, we'd have a lot of what is needed for the next level of graphics. I'd REALLY like to have the water shader technology available on other objects. Perhaps this would be easier if it was set as a "fixed material" for use, or assigned by script if viewer editing is too difficult.
Voxel terrain is possibly easier than you think - depending on your definition and requirements This could be implemented server side and sent to the viewer as a mesh(probably controlled by script), or (much much easier) just build the mesh externally and upload it Texturing it on the other hand - oh dear, we need that multitexturing and shaders again. Of course, doing it properly with actual editing and displaying in viewer would be MUCH harder
an avatar overhaul would be a HUGE project both server, client & modelling side. There are very few people who can do this type of coding out there, it is an "advanced" topic... We do have rigged mesh to take up the slack. Don't hold your breath.
Anything with static objects or materials is viable, the code is very similar to what already exists so.. just fiddling and tweaking. Multitexturing should be very similar to the other material modes and only need minor changes to server/client. Once you have two sets of UVs, the rest is supposed to be easy No shader required if you send it fixed function
Trees - it's not that hard to import mesh trees, adding additional items to the palette might be tricky, but could be done. I'm not sure if they are rezzed client or server side off hand. Linking them to the wind... hmm...
Tunnel into terrains - awesome idea, however less trivial than it should be Again, changes both server and client side with additional data for the landscape and the way it is edited and rendered, plus changes to the height detection code, breaking physics objects that rely on it, and other issues.. However - It is relatively trivial to replace a terrain with mesh or other components, but it can't look as nice without multitexturing/shaders.
shaders - we already have shaders in for water, landscapes and sky. If those were made available for objects along with multitexturing, we'd have a lot of what is needed for the next level of graphics. I'd REALLY like to have the water shader technology available on other objects. Perhaps this would be easier if it was set as a "fixed material" for use, or assigned by script if viewer editing is too difficult.
Voxel terrain is possibly easier than you think - depending on your definition and requirements This could be implemented server side and sent to the viewer as a mesh(probably controlled by script), or (much much easier) just build the mesh externally and upload it Texturing it on the other hand - oh dear, we need that multitexturing and shaders again. Of course, doing it properly with actual editing and displaying in viewer would be MUCH harder
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