the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

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Ilan Tochner
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Ilan Tochner »

Thank you Beq,

You can experiment in the Kitely Merchants Sandbox, it has an 8 hour autoreturn policy and is usually empty or close to it. https://www.kitely.com/virtual-world/Il ... ts-Sandbox
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Tess Juel »

This is a long shot but Mike, how old is the mesh that misbehaves?

I suddenly remembered this bug: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9035
It doesn't seem related at first glance but both bugs are about the software confusing the face numbers and so is the other wrong-texture bug I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Ubit's reply to my bug report is actually rather shocking:
"Yes, older versions of opensim had it wrong.
And yes older meshes have several issues...
even so, many can be used within their time context, ie only on original objects, not tring use them with new scripts that need to know number of sides"

I do not know when the mesh format bugs were fixed but it must have been quite recent; they were still there in early distributions of OS 0.9.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Tess Juel wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:12 pm
This is a long shot but Mike, how old is the mesh that misbehaves?

I suddenly remembered this bug: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9035
It doesn't seem related at first glance but both bugs are about the software confusing the face numbers and so is the other wrong-texture bug I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Ubit's reply to my bug report is actually rather shocking:
"Yes, older versions of opensim had it wrong.
And yes older meshes have several issues...
even so, many can be used within their time context, ie only on original objects, not tring use them with new scripts that need to know number of sides"

I do not know when the mesh format bugs were fixed but it must have been quite recent; they were still there in early distributions of OS 0.9.
The item was uploaded on Sept 1st, 2019 in Kitely. So it was after kitely upgraded to 0.9.1.1. We uploaded it in Naboo which uses ubODE.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Beq Janus wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:52 pm
Mike Lorrey wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:32 am
Are there caches in the firestorm install other than the ones that get cleared?: If the caches are cleared, where would the viewer be getting the wrong texture other than the asset server (it couldn't be the merchant sandbox unless the region server was transferring a texture from face 5 to face 7) so where else other than the asset server find that speaker texture and wrongly apply it to the back and frame (face 7)?

I was very clearly able to see the problem in Naboo, it was only ever visible after a cache clear, but it was fairly reliably repeatable. The problem I had is that it is surrounded by literally 1000s of other objects all communicating back and forth with the asset server etc.

things that seem familiar:
1) The face that corrupts is the same face on each object,
2) it corrupts in the same way in each, suggesting the underlying mesh asset not the top level "container" is the issue.
3) It is typically fixed simultaneously, also suggestive of the common feature.

things that do not fit:
1) The instance that is part of the link set with the table is not affected.
2) It does not repeat on demand but needs a clean cache
3) no edit needs to be made, simply highlighting is enough.
4) it's static mesh, for the most part nothing has changed in static mesh batching.
5) I don't think there are materials involved, this is just a simple diffuse?

why is #5 relevant? A number of the rigged mesh bugs manifest because of artful manipulation by creators to try to force alpha blended faces to render in a specific order. Frankly, those games are a pain to me as it increasingly means that just a change of compiler setting can upset someone's pet workaround. The kind of gimmicks used are the setting of an alpha mask cutoff threshold, but using alpha blend/None, of adding a blank normal map, or a blank normal+spec. These tricks are exploring the fact that the pipeline code has to deal with different things in different ways, in som cases, it forces a different render batch in others it simply changes the order in which things get drawn. In ALL cases, there is no guarantee it will continue to work tomorrow or anytime in the future, though boy do people scream when things break. HOWEVER, with the limited insight I have been able to apply, I do not see any such features (intended or not) that might explain it, these seem common or garden meshes.

@mike, given your other testing (where you set the misbehaving face to ply) are you pretty confident that the issue survives replication and transfer? If so could you pass the object to me (full perm if at all possible) my kitely account is Beq Janus.

I'll then try to find a quiet place where I can rez and hopefully reproduce the issue and then observe it both in the rendering and in the conversation with the region.

As Graham suggests, testing on another viewer would be useful. I don't know much about scene gate internals and whether they are aligned with the more recent linden lab update. Alchemy is from the same root as Firestorm but has various tweaks of its own.

It would be interesting to know which version(s) of Firestorm have exhibited this behaviour too.

I always tend to assume a viewer bug until I can demonstrate otherwise, just because there is more to go wrong.
5) Its just a diffuse, I'm not using any PBR on that material or the material the speaker grill texture is coming from (face 5).
I don't have a problem giving you a copy of the object. I'll be around all day thursday (2pm event in Naboo). Building is on in the region, otherwise you can use the Kitely Merchant Sandbox. I'll drop the object on your account as well as the two textures in question.
Versions of firestorm I've seen this on: 6.4 and everything since then. Might have been on a previous version too but thats the one that i remember discussing the bug with Ilan about it and he suggested I upgrade my viewer. I had previously used 6.5 but went back to 6.4 because of the vivox/teleport bug. Now I'm on 6.6
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Mike Lorrey »

One other thing to note: it isn't just the texture that is flipping, its the whole material. There is a dark grey color applied to face 7 when it has the right texture on it. When the mesh reverts to the speaker grill texture, the color I set to that face disappears and goes to white.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Tess Juel »

Mike Lorrey wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:29 am
The item was uploaded on Sept 1st, 2019 in Kitely. So it was after kitely upgraded to 0.9.1.1. We uploaded it in Naboo which uses ubODE.
You mean 0.9.0.1? Opensimulator 0.9.1.1 wasn't released until January 2020 according to the release notes: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Release_Notes

That means your mesh does have the face count bug and all the other issues of early mesh uploads. I still don't know if there is any connection of course. Let's see what Ilan and Beq have to say.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Tess Juel »

Tess Juel wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:08 am
Mike Lorrey wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:29 am
The item was uploaded on Sept 1st, 2019 in Kitely. So it was after kitely upgraded to 0.9.1.1. We uploaded it in Naboo which uses ubODE.
You mean 0.9.0.1? Opensimulator 0.9.1.1 wasn't released until January 2020 according to the release notes: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Release_Notes

That means your mesh does have the face count bug and all the other issues of early mesh uploads. Those bugs were fixed either 28th October 2019 or 7th January 2020.

I still don't know if there is any connection of course. Let's see what Ilan and Beq have to say.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Ilan Tochner »

We only upgraded to OpenSim 0.9.x after 0.9.1.1 was released.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Tess Juel »

Ilan Tochner wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:29 am
We only upgraded to OpenSim 0.9.x after 0.9.1.1 was released.
That means that if Mike's date is incorrect, his mesh was uploaded with OS 0.8 which definitely had the bug(s) Ubit mentioned.
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Re: the material texture error bug is real in Naboo

Post by Mike Lorrey »

Tess Juel wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:15 am
Mike Lorrey wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:21 pm
a) the correct texture was already on another material of the neighboring mesh, so you are wrong. It took no time to download it cause it already had it
Ok. You didn't mention that and it makes a difference of course. Even so it must mean the viewer already had the right texture UUID so it can't be purely a server side issue.

I've seen something similar before so I can at least confirm that such a weird bug is possible. That was on a different grid running the very first distribution of opensim 0.9. What happened then was that the meshed showed up with the right textures but next time I went to the sim, face 7 had switched to a texture used by another face of the same mesh. Clicking on the object didn't solve the issue then and the bug did not show up in everybody's viewer. Unfortunately we never figured out what was happening back then.
I've mentioned this several times.
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