Kitely Forums

H Ada,

I understand your feedback, but it's important to remember that we hardly get new non-Organization users who haven't come from either Second Life or other OpenSim grids. The people who log into Kitely who aren't already experienced with using the viewer are usually brought in by their organization, and those people enter Kitely via the organization's world(s), not the Kitely Welcome Center.

I'm not saying changes can't be made but I think it's best we define the target demographics in a realistic way.

Ilan Tochner wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:38 pm Hi Ada,

There are already big clearly marked arrows with labeles on all the paths from the landing point. The events sign is a few meters from the landing point and doesn't contain any information that a new user would need to know to get to that sign. In addition, the information that sign contains is already presented in the viewer login page that people see before they even go inworld.

You are correct Ilan; all you say is true. However there are some issues.

First with respect, that Kitely login page is like an LSD flashback. Those different windows popping up and down make my eyes sad. Personally, I would much rather see four fixed windows that show a few items and have a MORE button (yes, the more button already exists)... than those difficult-to-control pop-up screens. (Does anyone in history like pop-up screens... ever?) I believe fixed-size screens would be more informative, especially for new users. I only mention this because you mentioned the splash page in your post above. Just my personal opinion, but I'm not all that thrilled with how it works. For new users it's overly busy and confusing

Regarding the direction signs at the Welcome Center: they are on the paths, in the form of large, "engraved" letters in stone. There are people who will have difficulty reading those gray-on-gray signs. Those who are dyslexic. Those who speak other languages and can read English in clearly-printed letters but might have significant difficulty with the "etched-in-stone" format. Those with poor eyesight who will have the same experience; they can read normal lettering fine, but may have difficulty making out the "cut in stone, shadowed letter effect". It does look nice... but is it effective?

It is taught in marketing graphics classes: don't make the lettering so fancy it becomes difficult to read.

I pointed out and two others agreed: the fountain blocks people's view. One solution would be to remove the fountain altogether so everything is nice and visible. But if one likes the fountain, simply move it off to the side, with a nice walkway around it so it becomes a decorative attraction rather than a center-piece. Leave the central area to avatar landing, so people can stand or sit and chat with each other. That also makes it much easier for Greeters to talk with people (I know this from long experience, at different Welcome Centers).

Another thing I would recommend doing (again, just making suggestions, as has been requested of us): remove the two front pillars on all the kiosks. They block clear view of the kiosks. Make the signs inside the kiosk fullbright-- a trick known and widely-used by merchants. Non-fullbright signs can be difficult to read for some people. Fullbright signs remain equally legible at all times, and would be more visible from the Welcome Center, encouraging people to come and read them (if the two pillars blocking the majority of them were removed so the signs could be seen in the first place).

Ada posted a good photo above of what the Welcome Experience is like: a limited-view, "What next?" environment. It's limited because there's a huge fountain in the center blocking everything. Look at the photo: can one read the sign that's there? Can we read the lettering on the sidewalk? That's what we're discussing regarding limited visibility and difficult-to-read instructions.

The benches could be retained, the fountain removed, and I have a new device that I could donate to make the benches instant-seatable for 99% of the avatars out there, including Biggies, Dinkies, Tinies and Wees.

So as Ada suggested, replace the sidewalk "engraved" signs with attractive signposts that are more visible. I know this sounds odd, but every single Sunday I have to cam around to try and find the Meeting Center. It's at an odd, unmarked location... and despite the number of times I have been there I still have to visibly search for it. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this, because I've seen other avatars log in and do the exact same thing... spin around or fly around trying to find the Meeting location. I've heard people remark in chat, "Where is that meeting place?"

That I believe, is what Ada and Chris are speaking of when they talk about arrows and things being more visible and easier to find. As Ada's photo excellently illustrates: visibility at the Welcome Center is very limited. A nice-looking Welcome Center doesn't necessarily equate to a useful and informative one. That's what we're pointing out here: the possible need to simplify and change a bit. Not to re-work the entire Welcome Center, because it's already been stated that's not desirable. We're just pointing out a few changes to make things more visible and informative and easier to find.

Regarding current demographics... one can rely too much on demographics. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the populace we get from SL and other grids, but is that where Kitely's focus should be? People on SL are usually very vested there, and only a small percentage of them are willing to even check out Opensim. I speak to people on SL regularly who are still of the impression that Opensim is a laggy, amateurish system. They aren't aware of the major changes that happened in 2018. They aren't aware that technically and performance-wise we can now challenge SL itself. They're not aware that there are more regions on Opensim than on SL. They don't know we have far more powerful building tools. And they are so extremely vested in SL in land ownership and in inventory investment-- and all their friends are on SL-- and they're simply not interested in leaving and moving to Kitely or other OS grids.

Then there are people who will use Opensim to create and then take those creations to SL and party on SL and sell on SL Marketplace, just using Opensim for what they can get out of it but still focusing on SL. Clearly our future should not focus on attracting people from the SL populace.

The point? Regardless of current demographics, Opensim needs to plan for the future and create our own, market-viable demographics. If people are coming to Kitely and leaving because they didn't find what they needed... maybe Kitely should find out what they need, and make that easier for them to find. One way to do that is to make the Welcome Center more visible so people can see the signs, will click the signs, will read the resulting information. Maybe set up a feedback page for new visitors. See what they're thinking. Re-installing the Greeter system last meeting was a big step in the right direction... if we follow through on that.

In reading these forums, I see (in my opinion) far too much reliance on the Kitely Website. People ask questions and they are told, "It's on the Kitely Website". We mention information that new users need to know, and the reply is "It's on the Kitely Website". With respect to all, this is a virtual world... not Facebook. If someone wanted to browse a 2D website, why would they come to a virtual world? Virtual Worlds need in-world information... and visitors need that information to be visible, easily accessible, easily readable in-world. That is part of the 3-D virtual world experience. It's okay for an in-world kiosk to send someone directly to a web page that answers their question, but that access is best served in the 3D environment, at the Welcome Center... and those access points readily visible and available. That's the Virtual Experience.

Thus the above respectful suggestions: move or remove the fountain, free up the central area, remove columns that block visibility, make things more accessible to both first-time visitors and Greeters, make signs more readable (replace the sidewalk notices with easily-visible and easily-readable, attractive, natural-looking signs. I believe such steps would help Kitely and its users.


As a note: We spent some time and effort at Wellspring doing exactly the things mentioned above. We re-designed our Welcome center, we replaced bright-green street signs with natural-looking wood signs, and we created an entire Terraport Center so visitors can reach any point on Wellspring at the touch of a sign. How did we design both the Welcome and Terraport Centers? As an open-center circle where new visitors can see everything from where they stand. The primary information corridor at Sendalonde Library is one straight, open hallway with signs and landmark givers and notecard givers easily-accessible and visible. So I'm just recommending things that we've already implemented-- and that I've learned to implement on my own worlds throughout the years. Just suggestions, but as Ada and Christ have echoed, I believe these to be potentially effective, easily-implemented changes.

Thanks for your time listening, as always. It's nice to know the owners of Kitely are deeply interested in these forums. That rocks. : )

move or remove the fountain, free up the central area, remove columns that block visibility, make things more accessible to both first-time visitors and Greeters, make signs more readable (replace the sidewalk notices with easily-visible and easily-readable, attractive, natural-looking signs. I believe such steps would help Kitely and its users.

Alternatively, simply move the landing spot to one of the open areas and put the signs there.

If the landing area is at <124,130,23> it is adjacent to the meeting area, which already has a sign. This sign model could be placed next to the other pathways to indicate where they lead to.

Any greeters could sit in the meeting area or in the fountain area on the seats near the path to that circle, and would be visible to visitors.

This would avoid the need to remove an attractive part of the Welcome Center (the fountain), and meets the requirement of those who like signs.

Greeters need to be near where people log in so that in addition to the signs, visitors see the Greeters right there. Greeters sitting in the meeting area or in the Welcome area with people rezzing into a "sign area" a distance away wouldn't be a conducive to assisting new ones.

Dot wrote:" meets the requirement of those who like signs."

It's not a matter of "liking signs", nor of rezzing visitors in the middle of a bunch of signs. A good Welcome Center needs to be an attractive, welcoming, informative, cohesive whole. That's why they're called Welcome Centers. They don't have to be in a circle or square. They could be a landing pad with a single welcome sign and an arrow pathway showing the visitor where to go next with information along the way (except of course that Firestorm doesn't default to WASD so many visitors can't even figure out how to walk, and thus need immediate assistance).

My primary function on Kitely is making sure Wellspring's Welcome Center is up to snuff. I've developed other Welcome Centers... lots of them (as have many of us). We've seen which ones worked, which ones didn't, came to understand why they worked and why they failed. I sadly watched Inworldz die... in large part due to one of the worst Welcome Centers I've ever seen. Several of us tried to tell Beth that Inworldz Welcome Center was literally damaging the grid, but she wouldn't listen to any of us.

Retention low? The first thing to examine is the Welcome Center and intake process.

Some Kitely members are are aware of a number of things that are hampering Kitely retention. Some of these things can be fixed if folks want to (such as the Welcome Center), others are likely to not be changed. So we're just focusing here on some rather easy, simple changes that can be made with minimal effort... that would make the Welcome Center more attractive and functional and above all, new-visitor friendly.

At the last meeting someone suggested we put an open-area Coffee Bar to the side of Welcome where people can just sit and chat (I don't remember who suggested it; it was a great suggestion). Add a dance ball. I know that sounds like a very odd idea and kind of goofy, but that very idea proved highly successful on another grid long ago. There are still people who remember "Morning Coffee". Someone else mentioned setting up a small "Freebie center" where merchants could offer high-quality, grid-approved freebies. There's nothing new visitors like better than easily-accessible, friendly Greeters along with free, useful things to get them started.

A list could be made of viable suggestions. Reviving the Greeter system was the first of such suggestions. There are other equally effective options.

So these are just thoughts for consideration. What Kitely implements or doesn't implement or if it stays exactly like it is now... that's up to the company. But as was mentioned to Beth years ago when Inworldz stopped growing: "When what you're doing isn't working, change what you're doing." If retention of new visitors is low, Kitely should be asking "Why" and "How can we fix that?"

Fact: Retention is low across all OpenSim grids. It's low in SL too -- but they start from a higher number.

A good Welcome Center needs to be an attractive, welcoming, informative, cohesive whole.

I totally agree. In fact both the current and previous Welcome Centers were designed with those criteria in mind, and in response to many other people's comments and suggestions. In the end it has to be a compromise -- we all have opinions as to what works and what doesn't.

What is being asked for here would require a complete rebuild of some areas. That is not practical.

However, what I suggested is practical, in keeping with the current aesthetics (so maintaining cohesion and attractiveness) and relatively easy to implement to make a start in meeting what seem to be the current requirements.

Now to address some of your points:

Dances have been held in the past in the auditorium area of the current Welcome Center -- it is in the south east corner. Yes, there was a dance ball.

In the previous iteration of the Welcome Center there was a coffee bar and many areas for sitting and chatting. However, they were simply not used. The current iteration of the Welcome Center took account of that and reduced the number of sitting areas (there are still some, if you look).

There has always been a tension between having in-your-face signs and more subtle directions in keeping with the aesthetics of building an attractive and quick loading region. I remember in the previous iteration a directive suddenly sprung on the builders to add a whole lot of signs around the landing point in response to similar comments. It was done, but it left the builders very unhappy. And I'm not sure it resulted in the people clamouring for them staying around any longer than before.

What Snoots said. And I should add what he didn't say: He created the largest groups of all time iSL. His research and testing isn't random.

And what Dot said.

I love the idea of the coffee shop and dance floor nearby, calm decor, no flashy lights. An environment like something we can find in most cultures where adults, kids, and in our case, furries, wee and bots can socialize. DJ's maybe. One good example iSL (before griefers and lack of SL support turned them into a ghost town) that attracted and retained thousands of visitors for years - Junkyard Blues. At any time, any day, people could go there, be greeted by actual people, dance a little, talk a little. DJ's of several nationalities and most time zones competed for time slots and made enough in tips to hire greeters. A well enforced dress code and code of conduct. A couple of the DJ's streamed live performances from RL clubs, whose performers could make more in tips from the virtual audience than they did from their RL patrons. Elbow Room, another example of safe socializing space that always had people and many regulars. Any of these ideas would have to be reworked for Kitely's far more G-rated environment. Put an experienced team in charge of scheduling and other management for a cut of any tips. Once a week close it for the Community Meeting. Something like that.

And ya, fix the landing spot, what can be seen upon landing and any other issues that are borking retention. I know from the ART events that it should be at 128,128,22 or so, no matter what hubs or other world settings. Because there are so many different ways to get to a place in OS with so many different viewers and it changes often.

OK... Let me see if I can think of ways that would be easy and practical to implement based on the current build.

As a first step, what information needs to be nearest the landing spot? Who is the intended audience?

I agree with both Dot and Ada and am appreciative of the response and discussion we're getting on these things.

Dot, a lot of the points you make are spot-on. Others, I have alternative thoughts and experiences.

Coffee House: A coffee house can be successful or not used at all, depending on the ambiance. Just like in real life, if the coffee house is designed well, they will come. Morning Coffee was designed by a Tiny, manned primarily by tinies, and had funny posters all around. There were no walls; everything was out in the open, with open-air benches and a table. It was right by the Welcome Center: easy access. There were scripted drink givers. Whoever wanted to be "barista" could do so and was encouraged to do so... and that person acted somewhat as a Greeter themselves, getting conversation going and keeping it going. All in all, it was a fun place to be. But the open, non-closed, humorous nature was of prime importance.

Dance Floor: The existing dance floor and events arena is waaaaay off of Welcome Center. They don't answer the need to give new people something to see and do when they first log in. Those who visited the very first Ahern know exactly what I'm talking about; there were people there almost all the time, partying and enjoying one another's company. Whenever someone feels lonely or bored, if they know they can always visit the Welcome Center for a good chat... well, that's just gold isn't it?

"Requiring a complete rebuilding of some areas": Actually, not that I see. Consider what's been suggested as a basic foundation: 1) Remove the fountain (easily done). 2) Remove the two pillars from the front of the kiosks so one can see inside from the welcome area. 3) Use fullbright on the signs there so they're more visible to newcomers. 4) Change the sign-textures on the sidewalks and put up simple, attractive wood signs helping people understand where to travel. Use two signs on the area leading to the Town Meeting, because at this time there's no sign at the Welcome Center itself indicating where the meeting center is. 5) Put a dance ball to the side of the Welcome center with floating text that says simply, "Click to dance". Let the Welcome Center itself be the dance platform. Will that work? I worked very well at the original Ahern and the Elf Clan Drum Circle... for years.

Those are a few things that I believe would open-up and enhance the Welcome Center. None of them require complete rebuilding of anything; they're just relatively quick modifications with significant impact.

Of course, a coffee house would have to be planned and would be an undertaking. As for the freebie center, there are already empty buildings available. it would take someone to organize it and set the ground rules for donations, but it can be done. But one step at a time. All of this doesn't have to happen overnight. We surely have enough talented people on Kitely to pull this off.

Everyone has low retention, including SL: Yes, they do. Maybe there's a reason for that... such as people just accepting that as the "norm", or not knowing how to fix it. Exits will always be higher than those who stay. In RL, those who look at products far outnumber those that buy them. The trick is to get as many to buy as the market will allow. That doesn't happen if they can't see the product because it's blocked by a big fountain, kiosk pillars, or dimly-lit signs. I think that's the primary point being made.

Everyone has ideas: While I agree that different people have different ideas on how things should be done, as Ada pointed out, these things I'm throwing out here aren't just random personal ideas. They've been time-tested, extensively. These concepts are based on some 16+ years of hard-core virtual experience as a very-large-group-founder, land baron, merchant, Greeter, world builder and welcome-center designer. That's not to say I'm right or that I have the best ideas. (Sometimes I miss stuff, like anyone.) Just saying that these ideas are based on time-tested, tried-and-true, actual-use experience. One example of such concepts can be found at Wellspring in the Welcome Center and Terraport Center. An example of a simple but useful welcome center can be found at Weefolk Township there.

It's my belief that with a minimum of effort, Kitely's Welcome Center visibility and functionality can be significantly increased. Other things such as a fully-fleshed out Greeting system, Freebie display, and other concepts, can come as time allows. We were asked "What can we do to improve Kitely?" Here's our answer. : )

Dot Matrix wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:17 pm OK... Let me see if I can think of ways that would be easy and practical to implement based on the current build.
As a first step, what information needs to be nearest the landing spot? Who is the intended audience?

Hmmms... good questions Dot. Intended audience: whomever needs it. Both newbies and first-time visitors from SL pretty much need the same information.

I'm standing at Welcome Center now. We want enough information to guide new ones, but not so much as to overwhelm them. So necessary things at Welcome Central (easily, readable, close-vicinity, no need to walk):

* Events Sign
* Greeters sign (I'd rename that one something like: "Kitely Assistance" or something similar)
* The Starter Pack

I would move the following signs from the Kiosk to the Welcome Center:
* World search (rename it PLACES TO VISIT)
* FAQs
* Kitely Market

Leave the other signs in the Kiosk.. but remove the two front pillars which currently almost entirely block visibility.

So that's a total of 6 items that might be pertinent for new visitors. These signs could either be put on one board, or encircling the Welcome Center if the fountain was moved. It could be that having that information all together on one board would be very accessible for new visitors. It would make the Greeter's jobs easier... and wouldn't clutter the area with excessive signs, lending to the pretty environment. : )

My place, Creative Collaborators, is now always on and could host a coffee shop, etc. Let me know what you want.